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Re:"Memory athletes" and the techniques they use [audio] by romanhn on Thursday May 13, 2021 @03:48PM (#27146500)
"Moonwalking with Einstein" by Joshua Foer is an interesting book on the subject of memory athletes. The author is a journalist who sets out to write the book and in parallel practices alongside his research subjects. In the end, he winds up winning the USA Memory Championship and setting a US record. Really drives home the point that it's all about the techniques and the time one is willing to put into them.
Re:"Memory athletes" and the techniques they use [audio] by ftio on Thursday May 13, 2021 @03:53PM (#27146565)
I read it in 2011 when it came out, and I still have a vague memory of the memory palace he teaches you to build. I used my childhood home to remember:

- Garlic in the driveway

- Six bottles of wine playing catch with three pairs of socks

- A scuba diver in the kitchen sink

- A smoke machine in the living room

I have no idea what it was that I was supposed to be remembering or whether those are even the right things, but memory palaces are apparently a powerful tool.

Re:"Memory athletes" and the techniques they use [audio] by raffraffraff on Friday May 14, 2021 @02:43AM (#27151459)
The problem I've had with memory palaces is that I find it hard to keep multiple versions of a scene separate from each other. I also find it tedious to come up with the scenes themselves. Mnemonics are the difficult part.

Derren Browne explains as way to memorize a deck of playing cards by assigning mnemonics to cards and creating a story with them. I found it somewhat ease. Memorising the cards by themselves is tedious. "Jack of diamonds... wait, no, was it hearts?" There are too many similar cards. So you turn each card into a 100% unique mnemonic using a reversible method. He used a combination of the peg numerical system (1=l, 2=n, 3=m etc) and the first letter of the suit (h=heart, s=spade etc) to come up with a single meme for each card. For picture cards, use characters or people who match up. Queen of hearts might be your wife. King of clubs might be a famous MC or rapper. This gives you 52 items like:

Queen Latifa: queen of clubs

Ham: 3 of hearts

Elon Musk: Jack of diamonds

Car: 4 of clubs

Dog: 9 of diamonds

All you need to do, as you're memorising the order of the deck, is to create a narrative around the individual cards. "Queen Latifa is eating ham with Elon Musk in her car. Her dog is on her lap begging". There's no way you're going to get the cards wrong, or the order. The first time I ever tried it, it took me about 30 minutes to invent or memorise existing card pictures. Once I tried to use it I successfully remembered 25 cards in a row. Surprisingly, I could recite them backwards or name any card that came before or after any card chosen from the deck. Our brains are very good at remembering stories.

Re:"Memory athletes" and the techniques they use [audio] by romanhn on Thursday May 13, 2021 @03:59PM (#27146632)
It's funny, the memory palace idea always seemed like such an odd concept to me, until I realized I have aphantasia and lack the "normal" visualization capabilities.
Re:"Memory athletes" and the techniques they use [audio] by totetsu on Friday May 14, 2021 @12:22AM (#27150664)
I have heard people who lack strong visualization are still able to get some utility out of it by verbally elaboratively encoding the thing rather than visually encoding it.
Re:"Memory athletes" and the techniques they use [audio] by romanhn on Friday May 14, 2021 @12:34AM (#27150719)
Totally. I did something along those lines as a kid to memorize the first 30 digits of pi. Basically coming up with an elaborate story and committing it to memory.
Re:"Memory athletes" and the techniques they use [audio] by IndySun on Friday May 14, 2021 @11:59AM (#27155682)
>coming up with an elaborate story and committing it to memory

I've tried a few of these, including the one in Derren's book. I have to say, none of it worked. Over the course of trying to remember 20 places of pi by various methods, I ended up committing it to memory too, but, and here's the important part, I do not remember them now. I think remembering different things benefit from using different techniques, and we just use the right one unconsciously, there's not a single method you can impose on all memory tasks.

Re:"Memory athletes" and the techniques they use [audio] by waaaaaaat on Friday May 14, 2021 @10:15PM (#27161676)
same. I remember the bottles of wine, scuba diver and claudia schiffer swimming in cottage cheese or something like that. Socks on the living room couch?
Re:"Memory athletes" and the techniques they use [audio] by bilal4hmed on Thursday May 13, 2021 @03:50PM (#27146523)
Highly recommend the book, its a great read.
Re:"Memory athletes" and the techniques they use [audio] by paulpauper on Thursday May 13, 2021 @04:09PM (#27146755)
it is a great story and probably even a better book, but the sciences is really lacking https://greyenlightenment.com/2018/08/14/bullshitting-with-e...

There are no peer-reviewed studies that corroborate the claims of the book, and research shows memory champions all have Mensa-level IQs. This is not surprising. Short-term memory is g-loaded and is a component of IQ test (it is called digit span or digit recall), so it is logical to assume that the best at memory would also have high IQs.

Re:"Memory athletes" and the techniques they use [audio] by romanhn on Thursday May 13, 2021 @04:52PM (#27147291)
That is a rather unconvincing post. It makes the link to IQ without any actual evidence, claims Foer has an IQ of at least 130 again without anything backing it up, and trots out a memory athlete's opinions as if they were unbiased facts. Never mind that the said expert specifically pointed out that correlation is not equivalent to causation. Or that IQs as measure of intelligence is still pretty contested.

It's been a while, but I have a recollection of Foer going into the question of why more people don't do this in his book. It mostly has to do with the amount of time one needs to commit to practice, coupled with limited transferability of this skill.

To give another anecdote, I've worked with a very high-performing engineer who spent a bunch of his free time building memory palaces for new codebases to ensure retention. I'm sure he was above average IQ-wise, but his productivity likely benefited from his approach as much as from his innate abilities.

Re:"Memory athletes" and the techniques they use [audio] by JoshCole on Thursday May 13, 2021 @05:12PM (#27147531)
It is more than unconvincing. It is outright misleading. The idea that scientific investigations are refuting the idea that these skills are learnable is false. It doesn't make much effort to find studies to the contrary. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4056179/

It also goes against common sense. Math, reading, and so many things are all learned, but frequently used by people who have a high IQ. Are we to assume that these things are not learned, because the author thinks IQ is the cause of reading skill, math, and similar things?

I've bothered going through the labor to learn the skill. I've seen my baseline measurement of recall ability improved by the training time I invested in learning the skill. I haven't bothered to get to a competitive level, but I don't need to do so to be certain that humans can learn skills by practicing them with the intention to improve.

The skeptic is just wrong. People can learn to improve their memory.

Re:"Memory athletes" and the techniques they use [audio] by paulpauper on Thursday May 13, 2021 @05:23PM (#27147653)
Consider that people with higher IQs have greater proficiency at math and reading (such as SAT scores) despite everyone regardless of IQ having some ability.
Re:"Memory athletes" and the techniques they use [audio] by JoshCole on Thursday May 13, 2021 @05:28PM (#27147699)
Yes, but that doesn't reflect the inability to learn. You're confusing cumulative advantage leading to a competitive edge with an inability of lower IQ humans to learn advanced skills. You will also find things like richness and beauty positively associated with winning competitions too. That you will find this doesn't mean memory can't be improved. It reflect cumulative advantage more generally. It is one of the reasons for the cognitive bias of the halo effect, a statistical side effect of the principles underlying the Matthew Effect. Edges are edges.

Critically, that doesn't mean that the skills aren't learnable. It means that people with the most advantages can exploit those advantages to gain a greater deal of advantage than someone who has less advantage.

Re:"Memory athletes" and the techniques they use [audio] by dennis_moore on Thursday May 13, 2021 @06:58PM (#27148548)
And so what if success in memory competitions is correlated with IQ? Grades among students are highly correlated to IQ, but that doesn't mean that good study habits and hard work won't improve your grade. Though I don't have a peer-reviewed source to back that up, sorry.
Re:"Memory athletes" and the techniques they use [audio] by aomml on Thursday May 13, 2021 @06:36PM (#27148365)
The article is wrong in many places. For example, it says:

> –One study showed that that training is non-transferable. This means if one learns a sequence of numbers, the skill fails when one tries to recite them backwards or a new set of numbers.

but just about every person who has ever memorized numbers with those memory techniques can recite the numbers backwards too. If you gain the skills to memorize one page of random numbers you can memorize a different one too, no problem.

Re:"Memory athletes" and the techniques they use [audio] by augustk on Thursday May 13, 2021 @04:15PM (#27146818)
On the other hand we have the Savant syndrome which is typically not associated with high IQ.
Re:"Memory athletes" and the techniques they use [audio] by Syzygies on Thursday May 13, 2021 @05:27PM (#27147692)
That, and I'm glad I didn't read "Mensa-level IQs" while drinking coffee, I would have spit all over my keyboard.

Mensa? A low threshold, yet smart enough to be in the game if you can find something that really interests you. But you choose a club? Huh...

It's actually heartening that various people famous for their IQs have accomplished zilch in their lives other than being famous for their IQs. This tells you that the test is flawed, and that other factors determine revolutionary levels of success.

The magician/mathematician Persi Diaconis long ago explained to me about "memory palaces" and their effectiveness in competition. This can be generalized: The mountaineer Conrad Anker relays how European skiers can spot an American skier from far off: They waste effort. Many people had Michael Jordan's physique, but Michael Jordan spent a decade developing his physique into a world class athlete.

One is the architect of one's intelligence. The most poisonous aspect of IQ tests is that people believe them, and conclude that intelligence is innate, not malleable.

Re:"Memory athletes" and the techniques they use [audio] by paulpauper on Thursday May 13, 2021 @06:33PM (#27148342)
If you think Mensa people accomplish little, wait until you see the general population
Re:"Memory athletes" and the techniques they use [audio] by emmelaich on Thursday May 13, 2021 @09:58PM (#27149780)
I'm going to hang this bit of trivia here ..

Robert Forster (of "Jackie Brown", "Breaking Bad" and much earlier "Medium Cool") was a member of the high-IQ Triple Nine Society.