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Re:The digital natives are not who you think they are by Smithalicious on Wednesday May 12, 2021 @05:08PM (#27135160)
Another instance of "middle-aged tech nerd makes fun of kids these days"

I get it, you're not too old to be good at computers, but I don't see the need to put down the younger generation and act like their tech knowledge doesn't extend beyond "video streaming".

Acting like kids are computer wizards is an exaggeration, but acting like young people know less about computing than this older generation is simply wrong.

Re:The digital natives are not who you think they are by teachingassist on Wednesday May 12, 2021 @05:14PM (#27135233)
I have taught kids for 20 years.

Young people (on average) know less about computing than they did.

The author of this article says "floppy disks, or 'the save icon' as the young kids would recognize it" - except that they often wouldn't. Kids don't have any experience of saving and loading files.

Re:The digital natives are not who you think they are by worker767424 on Wednesday May 12, 2021 @05:16PM (#27135258)
> Young people (on average) know less about computing than they did.

They know less about desktop computing.

Re:The digital natives are not who you think they are by TheOtherHobbes on Wednesday May 12, 2021 @05:27PM (#27135341)
And they know more about cultural computing. In the same way they'd be clueless when faced with a DOS prompt, many older people are clueless about how Insta etc work.

You could argue that's not really computing, and in a very obvious sense it isn't. But it's certainly a form of application development, for a very specific kind of application.

And the up side is that - unless AI takes over - people who can do nuts and bolts infrastructure computing will be rarer and in even higher demand than they are now.

Re:The digital natives are not who you think they are by teachingassist on Wednesday May 12, 2021 @05:26PM (#27135328)
I do disagree with the article: there are lots more opportunities for kids to deep dive into almost any field of tech that they choose to.

But, on the other hand, I've met teenagers who lacked confidence even using a browser to navigate to an unfamiliar website. They've learned how to navigate particular apps as silos.

This reminds me of my parents and grandparents' generation using computers. Comfortable with what they know and use regularly; no concept of what happens outside of that narrow window.

Re:The digital natives are not who you think they are by brongondwana on Wednesday May 12, 2021 @05:28PM (#27135347)
Kids these days know less about cars than they used to. Lots of them drive, but they couldn't service the engine.

Same energy.

Re:The digital natives are not who you think they are by falcolas on Wednesday May 12, 2021 @06:25PM (#27135904)
Tangent.

I grew up with cars I could (and did) service. I still remember how to break down a drum brake, and adjust it so it worked again when re-assembled. I've used grease zerks on the auto I drove. I've helped troubleshoot a carburetor.

Can't do that anymore, and it's only partially because the components don't exist, but because everything is so much more complicated you have to specialize in it to get much done.

Tangent wrap-up.

Maybe these "digital natives" have simply decided to specialize in something other than computers (and cars). Not all of them: I work with several folks who are decades younger than me, and they're perfectly comfortable with packet captures and bare metal databases.

Re:The digital natives are not who you think they are by klyrs on Wednesday May 12, 2021 @08:55PM (#27137184)
My great grandma played Klondike Solitaire with actual cards. How low-level is that?

Yup, this article is some world-class curmudgeoning. Most kids my age weren't programming at 7, so I had free reign on the commodore PET in the school library. Same thing goes for kids of today. Most are passive consumers, some will tear their world apart and figure out what makes things tick.

Re:The digital natives are not who you think they are by dharmab on Wednesday May 12, 2021 @07:08PM (#27136304)
> Can't do that anymore, and it's only partially because the components don't exist, but because everything is so much more complicated you have to specialize in it to get much done.

As a tuner, this reads strangely. I've rebuilt my ABS disc brakes and ECU tuning has been a thing for decades. People are building 300hp Saabs in their garages with open source software.

Re:The digital natives are not who you think they are by distortedsignal on Wednesday May 12, 2021 @08:06PM (#27136753)
> I grew up with cars I could (and did) service. I still remember how to break down a drum brake, and adjust it so it worked again when re-assembled. I've used grease zerks on the auto I drove. I've helped troubleshoot a carburetor.

Maybe not the same thing, but about two years ago, my car's check engine light came on. Dealer quoted me $2400 to fix the issue (ABS pump failed because of low voltage on system power). About a month ago, some friends and I spent a Saturday replacing the ABS pump. $300 ebay part, $20 worth of tools, $10 worth of brake fluid, $50 worth of OBD-2 readers to confirm what the problem was, and $50 for lunch for my friends.

I think it's not impossible to fix cars today. Maybe you won't be tuning an engine to get more power out of it, but it's 100% possible to tear down your brakes, brake systems, and lots of other stuff if you know where to look. I'm not super technical with cars, but if you forced me to it, I could change out my car's brake pads given two days.

This stuff isn't easy, and the tools are more computerized now, but if you want to understand modern cars, the info is out there. Buy your car's maintenance manual. It'll probably cost $30, but you'll have more information about your car than you could ever possibly learn. Every circuit, every resistor, every bus line, every hydraulic line.

But I think you're right that there is a class of people who work at a level above the tech. And I think that's what "digital native" usually refers to. Something less like a software engineer, something more like a societal engineer (I don't want to use the term "social engineer" because that's a loaded term in the security world). For them, tech is a platform to be used for alternate ends - followers, and likes, and clout and such.

I think it's a good thing that not everyone needs to be able to troubleshoot DHCP issues in order to get online - though I know that my friends and I got really good at that in high school. The fact that we enable people to operate at the level of societal engineering (as opposed to forcing everyone to operate at the level of software engineering) speaks to the maturity of tech. And that, at least, should be comforting to those who use tech to create tech.

Re:The digital natives are not who you think they are by rektide on Wednesday May 12, 2021 @06:20PM (#27135870)
desktop computing had core skills that could be developed, that would apply across different programs.

on mobile systems, the balance of power feels very different. apps are each their own immersive experiences, each picking their own widgets, toolkits, styling, paradigms. many apps are a thin shell over far off closed services we could not understand if we tried.

mobile has been a very advanced war on general purpose computing. the value of understanding the os, understanding "computing" has gone way way down in this far more black boxes environment. the user has been treated like an idiot, protected endlessly from themselves, and the technical underpinnings deeply deeply masked over.

computing is being destroyed, especially on mobile. the desktop is one of the few places one has any chance to learn about computing in any meaningful way.

Re:The digital natives are not who you think they are by dTal on Thursday May 13, 2021 @04:11AM (#27139652)
I wish this thread would focus more on this, and less on how poorly the article expresses it. The very concept of "mobile" as some sort of distinct platform is an attack on general purpose computing. Refer to a smartphone as a "computer", and people will look at you strangely. The entire thing is a highly succuessful exercise in escaping the decades of culture norms surrounding general purpose computing.

Until you can make a first class "mobile app" on a mobile, it's a system for manipulating people.

Re:The digital natives are not who you think they are by walshemj on Wednesday May 12, 2021 @05:39PM (#27135465)
Which is a problem when you get to to work in the real world in some cases I have seen a lot of basic knowledge.

Of course its muggings here how has to perform the task of putting it all back together - the emotional labor to use a modern term.

Re:The digital natives are not who you think they are by worker767424 on Wednesday May 12, 2021 @05:55PM (#27135623)
The business world will all be app-based once Gen-Z starts founding companies.
Re:The digital natives are not who you think they are by walshemj on Wednesday May 12, 2021 @06:40PM (#27136040)
I've already seen some of that various agencies sharing work on numerous different "sharing platforms" and this is not internes this is supposedly big name agencies working for major brands.
Re:The digital natives are not who you think they are by thefz on Thursday May 13, 2021 @02:34AM (#27139111)
And I don't see any merit in being proficient in using any touchscreen device, which have been proven intuitive enough for a toddler or even an ape to understand. So you can tap, drag, scroll, swipe? Impressive digital nativity.
Re:The digital natives are not who you think they are by oraphalous on Wednesday May 12, 2021 @05:13PM (#27135214)
Yeah... I agree, and would argue further that there is a specific kind of mistake being made in this post that I see many in tech make...

That of believing that living lower down the stack makes you superior somehow...

Here's an example of someone I think is clearly fucking amazing but arguably lives much higher up the stack than this guy...

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.theverge.com/platform/amp/2...

Re:The digital natives are not who you think they are by zozbot234 on Wednesday May 12, 2021 @05:19PM (#27135278)
Re:The digital natives are not who you think they are by Animats on Wednesday May 12, 2021 @05:20PM (#27135285)
The complexity today is so great that understanding the entire system requires a vast amount of knowledge. The Commodore 64 was notable for being totally described down to the hardware and bit level in a 1 inch thick book. People who grew up with that could fully understand that little device.

With a modest amount of effort, you could totally understand an AMPS phone, the last generation of analog cellular. It was a two-way FM radio controlled by a tiny CPU, no more complex than a Commodore 64.

Understanding a modern phone is a huge job. Even at a general level. There's a 90s data center worth of compute power in there. About four radios. A GPU. A 6-axis inertial guidance system. Several cameras. A rather excessive amount of software. A web browser, which is itself overly complex. Voice codecs. Voice recognition. Quite possibly a machine learning system.

That's a lot to understand. It is also not useful to the end user to understand it.

Re:The digital natives are not who you think they are by II2II on Wednesday May 12, 2021 @06:03PM (#27135702)
I suspect a better measure of technical proficiency is the ability to shape the technology to reflect your own needs. That could happen at a much lower level on the Commodore 64 since it was a much simpler machine, yet that should not invalidate the proficiency of a JavaScript programmer simply because they work at a much higher level.

Put in other terms, even those who absorbed the Commodore 64 programmer's guide didn't truly understand the machine. They may have known how to write software for it and even how to exploit the various chips, but that manual only provided surface level details about the electronics.

Re:The digital natives are not who you think they are by the_only_law on Wednesday May 12, 2021 @05:40PM (#27135477)
> Understanding a modern phone is a huge job.

I’ve tried (well maybe not phones, but other things). There’s a lot of stuff and large chunks of it are either undocumented, do not provide documentation unless you are in a contract with the company or are very superficially documented. On top I usually ended up finding I could not fully comprehend how A worked without comprehending B which required C which required D, etc.

Re:The digital natives are not who you think they are by infoseek12 on Thursday May 13, 2021 @12:14PM (#27143862)
Is there anyone alive who completely understands a latest generation iPhone down to the bit level? It would be impossible for someone outside of Apple to have the access necessary. But even if everything was completely open source would it be within the realm of human ability to understand something so vast and complex in the way that it was possible to understand a Commodore 64?
Re:The digital natives are not who you think they are by II2II on Wednesday May 12, 2021 @05:36PM (#27135437)
Some speculation here: there is a certain percentage of people who are interested in technology for its own sake in any generation and it that percentage is relatively stable. So yes, I agree that treating kids as computer wizards is an exaggeration and claiming that they are ignorant is wrong.

That being said, the "digital natives" claim really rubs me the wrong way even when it is confined to the subset of people who are genuinely interested in computers. It leaves the impression that the younger generation has little to learn from the older generation. The flow of knowledge should be going in both directions.

Re:The digital natives are not who you think they are by temp329192 on Wednesday May 12, 2021 @05:15PM (#27135240)
It's probably that older people growing up with computers needed to do something with them (could not just stream twitch) and hence when you had a computer, then you was what today would be called a power user.

Today, just millions of normal people use computers, tablets, phones, appliances every day and they get along fine - but they are not power users, since you can spend your time on the computer with almost zero knowledge about it.

A concrete example would be that it's totally fine today to not know, what a file or folder is - because all you see is a feed or an album.

Re:The digital natives are not who you think they are by ghaff on Wednesday May 12, 2021 @05:29PM (#27135358)
For example, to run your game, you might very well have needed to go into your computer and make changes to your autoexec.bat and config.sys files.

Do a lot of kids (above a certain age) actually not know what a file or folder is? Doing perfectly ordinary day-to-day stuff which is not at all technical in nature, I find I have to save and open files all the time.

Re:The digital natives are not who you think they are by rodgerd on Wednesday May 12, 2021 @05:18PM (#27135273)
It's a common problem when people have tied up their sense of self-worth in tweaking with janky, broken stuff, rather than on the things you can create with that. See also bitter, mediocre photographers who revile folks for being "fauxtographers" because they're making a living from photography on Instagram instead of fucking around with expensive lenses and Photoshop.

My kids know a lot less about the internals of a tech stack than I do, but they create a lot more things with the tools at their disposal than I do. Unlike the author, I think they're in a better place than I am.

Re:The digital natives are not who you think they are by wisty on Wednesday May 12, 2021 @05:29PM (#27135352)
Gen Y / Millennials usually know a fair bit about computers. They grew up as internet connected desktops become a mainstream thing.

Gen Z usually seem more like Boomers who can maybe do wonderful things with the video-telephone thingy but don't know a lot about it.