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Re:Volvo and Daimler bet on hydrogen truck boom this decade by bluGill on Wednesday May 12, 2021 @08:55AM (#27129749)
We can actually predict when batteries will hit the wall. Chemical laws are known well enough to put a limit. We use lithium batteries for reasons related to physical rules like electro-negativity (I'm too long from my chemistry to do more than throw out the right terms). The periodic table of the elements puts a limit on how much power different chemical reactions can produce. We can thus calculate a theoretical max battery beyond which nothing is possible. In the real world that maximum might need atoms that are unstable (more energy released by atomic decay), but we can ignore that for the theory.

I don't remember enough chemistry to do the above calculations. Someone does though, and they tell me that batteries won't get more than 4x smaller (I of course can't verify this claim - perhaps someone else can).

Re:Volvo and Daimler bet on hydrogen truck boom this decade by Scoundreller on Wednesday May 12, 2021 @10:49AM (#27130981)
Electrode potentials are what you’re probably thinking about.

Lithium is at one end, but we could work on the other end to get the greatest difference.

It’s a relative scale. Hydrogen was just chosen as 0, but that’s an arbitrary choice.

Looking forward to lithium-fluoride or lithium-gold batteries.

https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/electrode-potential-d_482...

Re:Volvo and Daimler bet on hydrogen truck boom this decade by Ekaros on Wednesday May 12, 2021 @01:16PM (#27132730)
Lithium fluoride sounds like battery chemistry that makes things even more fun when things go wrong...
Re:Volvo and Daimler bet on hydrogen truck boom this decade by consp on Wednesday May 12, 2021 @12:01PM (#27131836)
Thank you for this info. Now I realize why I heard some chatter about lithium bromide batteries a while back. Probably the "easier" to work with and cheaper instead of gold/chlorine/fluorine.
Re:Volvo and Daimler bet on hydrogen truck boom this decade by marcosdumay on Wednesday May 12, 2021 @01:14PM (#27132697)
Sodium-bromide in particular looks like a cheap, highly available, easy to handle pair that can fill every one of those niches that don't really care about energy density.

But current batteries use metal compounds, where the metal itself is never completely oxidized or reduced. Those are much easier to design, as you can simply place an ion exchange membrane separating the poles. AFAIK, nobody has any idea how a metal-halogen battery would work.

Re:Volvo and Daimler bet on hydrogen truck boom this decade by jcranmer on Wednesday May 12, 2021 @12:01PM (#27131837)
> We use lithium batteries for reasons related to physical rules like electro-negativity (I'm too long from my chemistry to do more than throw out the right terms).

Electronegativity is the tendency of elements to hold onto elements in a chemical bond, which determines the primary character of a bond (ionic or covalent) as well as things like dipole moments. What you actually want is redox potential, how much energy you can get out of reducing or oxidizing an ion in the reduction or oxidation half-reaction.

Re:Volvo and Daimler bet on hydrogen truck boom this decade by rriepe on Wednesday May 12, 2021 @11:49AM (#27131704)
Thunderf00t on Youtube loves these types of analyses. You can find one in almost every one of his videos. He does not have a lot of nice things to say about Elon Musk.

His page: https://www.youtube.com/user/Thunderf00t

Re:Volvo and Daimler bet on hydrogen truck boom this decade by bluGill on Wednesday May 12, 2021 @01:39PM (#27133010)
Interesting, but I'm not convinced. There is a big different between Musk being overly optimistic, and the ideas themselves being unsound. Musk does have his share of unsound idea, but he also has many ideas that are probably good but ahead of their time. Attacking an ahead of their time idea as unsound is wrong analysis. (I happened to watch the one on hyperloop - which clearly is a lot of vaporware - but don't confuse that with being a bad idea. Also don't confuse it being a good idea with it being something that anyone working on now will make work)
Re:Volvo and Daimler bet on hydrogen truck boom this decade by rriepe on Wednesday May 12, 2021 @01:52PM (#27133183)
Hyperloop is definitely lower-hanging fruit than Tesla. Of SpaceX, Hyperloop, Boring and Tesla, Tesla is easily the least scammy. But this particular energy density argument does come up pretty much any time he talks about Tesla.
Re:Volvo and Daimler bet on hydrogen truck boom this decade by yakz on Wednesday May 12, 2021 @05:59PM (#27135662)
Why do you say that Tesla is less scammy than SpaceX?
Re:Volvo and Daimler bet on hydrogen truck boom this decade by rriepe on Wednesday May 12, 2021 @07:54PM (#27136678)
Because of how scammy SpaceX is. Phil's points that we're just re-trodding the reusable vehicle idea from the Space Shuttle days, but somehow paying more for it, are pretty damning in my eyes [1]. It feels a lot like government-funded rocket shows.

I mean, space stuff happening is fun and I like it. But if it was cheaper to do it through NASA, on even the famously expensive Space Shuttle, what's the point of all of this?

Tesla's stuff is all minor in comparison.

[1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4TxkE_oYrjU

(Disclosure: I'm from Orlando and almost certainly somehow biased towards the shuttle program, not that I don't think it wasn't an inherently flawed idea. It was an awesome inherently flawed idea. So I actually do understand the fanboyism at play. I just liked NASA's "cool" better than Musk's "sexy." The stuff they've been pulling off remotely on other planets is more impressive than anything Musk is doing. I feel like we're picking corporate propaganda over American propaganda and I don't like it.)

Re:Volvo and Daimler bet on hydrogen truck boom this decade by Misdicorl on Wednesday May 12, 2021 @11:26PM (#27138067)
Comparing a reusable launch vehicle (spacex falcon) with a reusable payload (the space shuttle) is absurd.
Re:Volvo and Daimler bet on hydrogen truck boom this decade by rriepe on Thursday May 13, 2021 @05:09AM (#27140087)
It might be if the nature of the comparison weren't overwhelmingly favorable to SpaceX.
Re:Volvo and Daimler bet on hydrogen truck boom this decade by EricE on Wednesday May 12, 2021 @01:22PM (#27132794)
Yeah, ThunderfOOt isn't exactly a reliable source - especially when it comes to Musk. I'm no Tesla sycophant - I'm plenty of skeptical with much of what Tesla is and how they operate - but ThuderfOOt comes across as someone with an axe to grind. Which is fine - just don't get all huffy when people call you out on it.
Re:Volvo and Daimler bet on hydrogen truck boom this decade by rriepe on Wednesday May 12, 2021 @01:47PM (#27133105)
Call me out on what? Watching Phil Mason? I enjoy The Flaming Lips too. Should I get upset when people don't like them?

Thanks for the warning but I'm trying to save the huffiness for when people attack my own work. I've already got a backlog there, with just that alone.

Re:Volvo and Daimler bet on hydrogen truck boom this decade by imtringued on Wednesday May 12, 2021 @01:18PM (#27132747)
Common Sense Skeptic has better arguments against Elon Musk though.
Re:Volvo and Daimler bet on hydrogen truck boom this decade by rriepe on Wednesday May 12, 2021 @01:53PM (#27133191)
Thanks, just subbed
Re:Volvo and Daimler bet on hydrogen truck boom this decade by nickik on Wednesday May 12, 2021 @07:23PM (#27136434)
This guy is a joke, that people on HN use him as a source for anything is sad.
Re:Volvo and Daimler bet on hydrogen truck boom this decade by rriepe on Thursday May 13, 2021 @05:06AM (#27140064)
Phil's great! He's funny, scientific and very opinionated. I don't agree with all of his arguments and viewpoints either. I think that's part of the fun.