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Re:Just Use Email – How to Use Email for Everything by babypuncher on Tuesday May 11, 2021 @06:41PM (#27124514)
It's fine to want all your communication on an open protocol, but email is just plain clunky and not good at all for the types of online communication people have grown accustomed to. It literally is just an electronic equivalent of sending a letter, and inherits most of the limitations that implies.

If any of us are ever going to convince friends and family to leave proprietary platforms like Messenger and Discord, we are going to need an open protocol that allows for the same features and level of polish. Trying to get everyone to just use email is a complete non-starter.

Re:Just Use Email – How to Use Email for Everything by chii on Tuesday May 11, 2021 @07:37PM (#27124975)
> It literally is just an electronic equivalent of sending a letter, and inherits most of the limitations that implies

that's not giving email enough credit. Email has zero limitations unlike real snail mail - the email client is the limitation, and that's "just" software.

The fact that gmail client was so successful is evidence that email could've been _the_ premiere platform for open communication. Instead, we now have many separate walled gardens vying for dominance. Imagine how the world would've been if snail mail back in the 20th century needed different stamps for different recipients!

Re:Just Use Email – How to Use Email for Everything by paxys on Tuesday May 11, 2021 @07:57PM (#27125101)
Email has very real limitations, imposed both by the protocol itself and by lack of consensus among all the major and minor clients.
Re:Just Use Email – How to Use Email for Everything by darau1 on Tuesday May 11, 2021 @08:31PM (#27125306)
Can you give some examples? I've never seen any mentioned.
Re:Just Use Email – How to Use Email for Everything by paxys on Tuesday May 11, 2021 @09:06PM (#27125525)
End-to-end encryption, large attachments, managing group messages (aka "reply all" problem), changing message subject, quoted messages when replying, HTML/CSS formatting, sorting/labeling/folders, tracking protections, sending messages over websocket, heck even basic message threading. None of this works consistently across different clients.
Re:Just Use Email – How to Use Email for Everything by darau1 on Tuesday May 11, 2021 @09:10PM (#27125554)
But those are problems with /the client/. Not the protocol.
Re:Just Use Email – How to Use Email for Everything by paxys on Tuesday May 11, 2021 @09:22PM (#27125631)
They are all problems with the protocol, considering that the protocol doesn't define how to do any of this.
Re:Just Use Email – How to Use Email for Everything by chii on Thursday May 13, 2021 @07:15AM (#27140812)
The protocol doesn't need to define any of those things. Just like HTTP doesn't define what goes on inside the viewport of the browser.
Re:Just Use Email – How to Use Email for Everything by babypuncher on Thursday May 13, 2021 @06:26PM (#27148281)
That is the problem. The protocol doesn't dictate how prior messages in a thread should be included or referenced. So any given thread is a hodgepodge of different solutions, making for an ugly, unreadable mess. Some clients try to clean this up, but it's basically an impossible task when you have no way of knowing what other clients will do.
Re:Just Use Email – How to Use Email for Everything by darau1 on Tuesday May 11, 2021 @10:04PM (#27125850)
Then should we not amend the protocol to define these things? Why reinvent the wheel, when we could improve it?
Re:Just Use Email – How to Use Email for Everything by paxys on Tuesday May 11, 2021 @10:27PM (#27125958)
Yes we should, but people have been trying for 20 years and it hasn't happened yet. The wheel has been successfully reinvented already.

The biggest reason for it is that in practice email isn't as open and decentralized as people like to think. For most of its history all advancements were controlled by Microsoft, AOL and Yahoo, and today it is controlled by Microsoft and Google.

Re:Just Use Email – How to Use Email for Everything by jjav on Wednesday May 12, 2021 @02:20AM (#27127267)
> Then should we not amend the protocol to define these things?

Most of the OP list of things they don't like are about client UI presentation. Inherently unrelated to the protocol itself.

I don't have any of those issues because I use a client that does the interaction and presentation exactly how I like it.

Re:Just Use Email – How to Use Email for Everything by jameshart on Wednesday May 12, 2021 @08:54AM (#27129734)
I don’t understand how your client can solve for someone else sending you top-quoted replies, or word-html-engine compatible HTML designed to work in outlook. Or eighty other people hitting reply all on the email chain you’re on. The clients other people use can behave completely differently, because the protocol leaves so many decisions up to clients.
Re:Just Use Email – How to Use Email for Everything by jjav on Wednesday May 12, 2021 @05:02PM (#27135111)
You're adding things not in the OP list I was responding to so I didn't claim that. But let's try:

Reformatting top-quoted replies. This is possible with email because you can pipe the messages through any preprocessing you want. Inserting custom processing into the delivery pipeline is generally impossible with all proprietary systems, but easy with an open standard like email.

HTML formatting: Again, easy due to customizable preprocessing and/or viewers.

Eighty people responding to a thread: This is threading, handled natively by most good email clients. Gmail makes a mess of it though, so I get why it'd be painful if you use gmail. Don't use gmail.

> because the protocol leaves so many decisions up to clients.

I feel like this is a misunderstanding. The clients have nothing to do with the protocol (SMTP), that's the job of the MTAs (mail transport agents).

The client provides the UI/UX interaction part. It is an immense strength of standards like email that there are tons of clients. You may want a completely different UX with your email than me, so you're free to have it exactly the way you want and so am I. And we can still message each other. This is impossible with proprietary walled gardens.

Re:Just Use Email – How to Use Email for Everything by jameshart on Thursday May 13, 2021 @06:47AM (#27140668)
Client support for the features you’re talking about has everything to do with the protocol. How are you threading if not based on SMTP headers? What SMTP headers are meaningful for threading? What does SMTP have to say on the subject? Nothing - because it only talks about MTA behavior not clients.
Re:Just Use Email – How to Use Email for Everything by babypuncher on Wednesday May 12, 2021 @12:58PM (#27132491)
You have some magical email client that turns "reply all" firehoses into clean Slack/Discord-style message threads?
Re:Just Use Email – How to Use Email for Everything by jjav on Wednesday May 12, 2021 @04:49PM (#27135000)
Slack threads are the worst possible UI ever, so that's not something to aspire to.

Email threading is trivial, nothing magical about it. Most every decent email client will properly thread conversations. Gmail will not, so yes gmail is super painful for long threads. Use a better client.

Re:Just Use Email – How to Use Email for Everything by darau1 on Wednesday May 12, 2021 @06:07AM (#27128590)
What client is that?
Re:Just Use Email – How to Use Email for Everything by pfranz on Wednesday May 12, 2021 @12:32AM (#27126610)
Isn't the "reply all" problem a user issue? If people used BCC instead of a bunch of To's, we'd never hear about it. Heck, I would think email clients would prompt if you tried to sent more than a dozen people without BCC.

I agree with everything else and think "managing group messages" has other issues. For example, it's nice that I can duck out of an iMessage group, but can't duck out of a text message group or email chain.

Re:Just Use Email – How to Use Email for Everything by lmm on Wednesday May 12, 2021 @04:07AM (#27127920)
Email has:

no shared concept of a group/channel/...

no shared history support

no shared concept of a thread

no consistency about how previous replies are referred to (e.g. different quoting styles)

no real identity support

...

Re:Just Use Email – How to Use Email for Everything by chii on Thursday May 13, 2021 @07:12AM (#27140799)
> no shared concept of a group/channel/...

mailing lists

> no shared history support

Your own client or provider can store history. you also don't own someone else's history - a good feature imo.

> no consistency about how previous replies are referred to (e.g. different quoting styles)

A preference for individuals to decide.

> no real identity support

What's a "real" identity? my email address is my identity.

Re:Just Use Email – How to Use Email for Everything by lmm on Thursday May 13, 2021 @08:13AM (#27141214)
> mailing lists

Not understood at the protocol level, not visible as such in the client.

> Your own client or provider can store history. you also don't own someone else's history - a good feature imo.

It's a nightmare in practice. Catching someone up on a conversation ends up being a mess of forwarding multiple overlapping but partially distinct emails and then constantly having to resend messages as different people get dropped in different replies. Exiting such a conversation is even harder.

> A preference for individuals to decide.

The cost is much bigger than the benefit.

> What's a "real" identity? my email address is my identity.

There's no authentication. You can't associate yourself with multiple organisations except by using multiple addresses, and then there's no way to reflect that those are somehow the same.

Re:Just Use Email – How to Use Email for Everything by pfranz on Tuesday May 11, 2021 @09:00PM (#27125488)
Sending private information is the first thing I think of--from a bunch of aspects. Secure in transit has had a bunch of different, awkward implementations. My biggest concern is sending tax documents and it sitting in someone's archive folder (or sent folder) for years until their account is compromised.

So I often have organizations that send email pointing to their proprietary webmail. The alternative is sneakernet, hard copies, or even faxing.

Re:Just Use Email – How to Use Email for Everything by darau1 on Tuesday May 11, 2021 @09:08PM (#27125540)
Unless you physically hand your taxes in, isn't any solution technically vulnerable to being compromised?

Also, wouldn't encryption fix this problem? I don't understand how it might be implemented in the real world, but if you encrypt with your private key, then their public key the message should be safe in transit, and at rest (unless they leave it decrypted on disk)

Re:Just Use Email – How to Use Email for Everything by pfranz on Wednesday May 12, 2021 @12:35AM (#27126624)
> Unless you physically hand your taxes in, isn't any solution technically vulnerable to being compromised?

If that's all there is to it, then why do people use other solutions?

> Also, wouldn't encryption fix this problem?

Kind of. The problem is the protocol and lack of consensus prevents this from being feasibly implemented. Personally, I think encryption in transit is a low probability threat for me. I would also like certain data to "expire" or go into "cold storage" after a period of time. Sending it in a side-channel, like Dropbox or Google Drive means I can delete it or revoke access after a period of time but this breaks email.

Re:Just Use Email – How to Use Email for Everything by ryandrake on Tuesday May 11, 2021 @07:48PM (#27125038)
> If any of us are ever going to convince friends and family to leave proprietary platforms

I’ve kind of thrown in the towel on this fight. People are going to use what they like. For me, it’s E-mail. My friends and family know how to get in touch with me if they need to: using E-mail. If they want to text each other or WhatsApp each other or Snapchat each other or whatever it is they do, they can go right ahead: it doesn’t affect me. And that’s all OK!

Re:Just Use Email – How to Use Email for Everything by MereInterest on Wednesday May 12, 2021 @12:11AM (#27126504)
> If they want to text each other or WhatsApp each other or Snapchat each other or whatever it is they do, they can go right ahead: it doesn’t affect me.

So when Facebook slurps up your email address by virtue of your friends using WhatsApp, that doesn't affect you?

Re:Just Use Email – How to Use Email for Everything by ryandrake on Wednesday May 12, 2021 @10:33AM (#27130782)
Not really, because I don't use Facebook. I'm avoiding the bulk of the harm from Facebook (e.g. the dopamine spikes, wasted time I'll never get back, feed addiction, emotional manipulation/experiments, etc.) by simply not using it. Until I start getting ads from them even off of Facebook properties, I don't really care what they think they know about me.

Sure, they now have my E-mail address. I guess that sucks, but it was due to some other idiot's lack of OpSec, and there is nothing I can do about it. I'm not going to convince 2,000 people to stop using Facebook, let alone 2 million or 2 billion.

Re:Just Use Email – How to Use Email for Everything by addicted on Tuesday May 11, 2021 @07:07PM (#27124750)
Both Google and MS created excellent IM systems based on email.

It can be done. It isn’t because there is no billion dollar exit possible on an email based system.

Re:Just Use Email – How to Use Email for Everything by atatatat on Tuesday May 11, 2021 @09:44PM (#27125751)
What IM systems are you referring to..?
Re:Just Use Email – How to Use Email for Everything by stephenhuey on Wednesday May 12, 2021 @12:26PM (#27132127)
Pretty sure he's talking about the original chat embedded in the Gmail interface. The earliest records I can find in my logs are from February 2006. For at least 7 years I used it, and for many years my usage was quite extensive. Either due to changed preferences when I got older or iMessage or other things, it looks like I generally stopped chatting in there around May 2013. From my perspective, Google was sitting on a gold mine because so many people I knew in the USA and across the ocean were using it and it worked very well until they started fiddling with the product in ways that made it more clunky.
Re:Just Use Email – How to Use Email for Everything by chagaif on Tuesday May 11, 2021 @07:56PM (#27125096)
Matrix.org is exactly what you are describing