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Re:Facebook Should Halt Instagram Kids Plan, Attorneys Gener... by tjr225 on Monday May 10, 2021 @01:29PM (#27108530)
I don't really know how I'm going to approach this once my child is old enough to use devices but I think one might be able to argue that it makes sense for them to learn how to interact with the world as it exists, rather than a fantasy world where devices and the internet doesn't exist.
Re:Facebook Should Halt Instagram Kids Plan, Attorneys Gener... by hosh on Monday May 10, 2021 @02:00PM (#27108882)
My wife and I decided on a no-social media policy for our kids. We have a teenager and a 5 month old.

Our teenager has a phone we found that is a locked down Android, and has no internet (no wifi or 4g/5g). It is just a phone, with multimedia text, and non-network enabled calendar, clock. There is no app store.

My daughter is autistic. Our problems with the phone has more to do with her feeling like we are cutting her off of connecting with people she clings to, triggering some childhood history. I have no idea what will happen when our neurotypical son becomes a teenager.

There is much more to life than just what are on devices, and I have a general idea on how to approach this. I have been studying, and to some extent, applying regenerative paradigms. A good deal of that will involve the kids into the natural cycle of life. To viscerally experience where their food comes from, and where it goes. How to connect with another living being as a whole being in an ecosystem and community, whether that being is a human, animal, or plant. I am going to teach them the ethical framework, “care for people”, “care for land”, “fair share”.

Technology, then, is thoughtfully applied within that context.

What that means, I am still discovering for myself. But I have already made some progress on that —- what Christopher Alexander really meant by pattern languages and a timeless way of building; what Smalltalk and Hypercard had in common, why we had turned our back to it, and maybe it is time to use it; the philosophy of Free Software and how it is different than open source, and why it matters more than basic rights and liberty; how sandstorm.io enables community-oriented and local platforms.

It has not all gelled together for me yet, but I know something is there.

Re:Facebook Should Halt Instagram Kids Plan, Attorneys Gener... by supernovae on Monday May 10, 2021 @02:51PM (#27109448)
Devices aren't life, but they're part of ones life. Computers/tech are books, pen, paper, mail, the telephone, TV, radio, music - it is culture. It's the vehicle to connect people to all of that. Dehumanizing it won't do much to help people stay connected to humanity.

I'm not saying it's easy, i've had some epic battles with my kids in how they handle/navigate the complex social structures around technology in the palms of their hands - but i certainly don't think taking that away does anything and may be detrimental.

Society is all of us... There isn't a single one of us that didn't stay up all night reading a book, watching a movie, talking on the phone, writing a letter, sending "beeper" texts out, texting on smart beepers, getting on BBSs, connecting to internet, having phones, then text messages and so on and so forth. It's all connectedness and culture we've always had, but now more readily available.

Help your children navigate it, grow in it and thrive in it. Be there to keep it safe.

Re:Facebook Should Halt Instagram Kids Plan, Attorneys Gener... by Barrin92 on Monday May 10, 2021 @06:01PM (#27111414)
There's a big difference between reading at night or engaging with culture and the ephemeral content of social media newsfeeds.

Yes, it's important for children to engage with culture, to read, to explore music but this shouldn't be used as an argument to justify everything that can be grouped in under 'connectedness'. It's interesting you put reading there first because that is actually a solitary activity. Today it's arguably much more important to teach kids how to engage with their own minds and how to spend time alone and build out their own personality and views than hooking them into Instagram feeds. Which is not social in any genuine sense of the word.

Re:Facebook Should Halt Instagram Kids Plan, Attorneys Gener... by supernovae on Monday May 10, 2021 @11:45PM (#27114000)
Screen time for people that create/learn/do is much different than screen time for people that consume consume consume.

With that said, everything should be done in moderation. It's a skill important to know whether your socializing, or spending time alone.

Re:Facebook Should Halt Instagram Kids Plan, Attorneys Gener... by hosh on Tuesday May 11, 2021 @04:09PM (#27122884)
It is the moderation part I al concerned with. Facebook is incentivized to create UX that draws your attention back to the content. The algorithms doesn’t care which content, just that you keep going with it. That kind of vapid interaction is not engaging meaningfully or socially with other people ... instead, it turns people into social media zombies.

The old school online forums were not designed to create such attention. Posts are made asynchronously. Absolute instead of relative timestamps are used.

There are purpose-designed social media software with UX designed to bring people to consensus rather than dissension. They have been used in highly contentious political debates and bring about policy consensus. But you cannot monetize that.

Re:Facebook Should Halt Instagram Kids Plan, Attorneys Gener... by thehappypm on Monday May 10, 2021 @02:48PM (#27109424)
Somewhat ironic that you don't let your children use social media but here you are posting on a social media site.
Re:Facebook Should Halt Instagram Kids Plan, Attorneys Gener... by booleandilemma on Monday May 10, 2021 @03:27PM (#27109814)
Not really. Kids are not adults. They’re two separate categories of people.

Maybe OP drinks alcohol but they don’t let their kids drink it.

Maybe they own firearms but they don’t let their kids wield them.

Maybe they watch movies with violence and gore but they don’t want their kids watching them.

etc.

There is a double standard, and there should be, imo.

Re:Facebook Should Halt Instagram Kids Plan, Attorneys Gener... by PoignardAzur on Tuesday May 11, 2021 @06:17AM (#27116295)
Okay, but the potential harm / average good of internet access is orders of magnitude away from that of a firearm.

As a teenager, I would have loathed being restricted from the internet the way the above poster describes restricting their autistic teenager's.

(in fact, on one occasion my mother did restrict my computer access because I wouldn't go to the guitar lessons she paid for me anymore, I did absolutely loathe it, and I still consider that mildly abusive)

Re:Facebook Should Halt Instagram Kids Plan, Attorneys Gener... by numpad0 on Monday May 10, 2021 @03:47PM (#27110078)
Actually from biological standpoint there are no clear lines between kids and adults. That distinction is post-industrial revolution cultural one.
Re:Facebook Should Halt Instagram Kids Plan, Attorneys Gener... by coddle-hark on Monday May 10, 2021 @06:01PM (#27111415)
There are no clear lines between summer and winter but sandals stop being appropriate footwear at some point nevertheless.
Re:Facebook Should Halt Instagram Kids Plan, Attorneys Gener... by booleandilemma on Monday May 10, 2021 @04:02PM (#27110232)
I’m not a biologist, but isn’t puberty still a thing?
Re:Facebook Should Halt Instagram Kids Plan, Attorneys Gener... by enriquec on Monday May 10, 2021 @03:19PM (#27109706)
also remarkably ironic that they seem to want their kids to value life outside of technology but then proceed to say that software project licensing is more important than "basic rights and liberty" - completely out-of-touch
Re:Facebook Should Halt Instagram Kids Plan, Attorneys Gener... by drewzero1 on Monday May 10, 2021 @02:09PM (#27108981)
This is the conclusion I'm starting to come to as well. On the one hand there are things they shouldn't be exposed to until they can handle it themselves, but on the other hand they're going to learn stuff through friends or alternate routes of access. I'm not sure how I'm going to teach them how to have a healthy relationship with technology, besides trying to model one myself.
Re:Facebook Should Halt Instagram Kids Plan, Attorneys Gener... by mixmastamyk on Monday May 10, 2021 @03:38PM (#27109955)
The "real" world also consists of filth in all its myriad forms. Will you be exposing your kids to these experiences, so they can learn to interact with them as well?

These platforms have very little to teach, so it's not like there is useful tradeoff being made in any case. It's simply an often toxic form of entertainment, worse than television imho.

Re:Facebook Should Halt Instagram Kids Plan, Attorneys Gener... by gmadsen on Monday May 10, 2021 @03:47PM (#27110071)
yes? if they don't know that predators exist or what drugs are, that is setting them up for dramatic failure
Re:Facebook Should Halt Instagram Kids Plan, Attorneys Gener... by mixmastamyk on Monday May 10, 2021 @03:54PM (#27110156)
There's a difference between knowing they exist and hands-on experience at a young age.

Do you think being on Facebook, et al is a proper course in these subjects? How did you learn about them in the days before social media? The idea that corporate surveillance and conditioning is somehow required for growing up is silly and dangerous to the kids themselves.

Re:Facebook Should Halt Instagram Kids Plan, Attorneys Gener... by gmadsen on Monday May 10, 2021 @03:59PM (#27110204)
besides the surveilence part, yes I do. social acceptance is a huge part of being a teen, no matter the social circle.

I was on irc throughout my early teens.

Re:Facebook Should Halt Instagram Kids Plan, Attorneys Gener... by mixmastamyk on Monday May 10, 2021 @04:13PM (#27110335)
IRC in the old days is only tangentially analogous to today's sophisticated addiction services.

I suggest watching the Social Dillema on Netflix for an idea. Here's a decent article I recently read on the subject, though there are probably better ones: https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-lonely-burden-of-todays-tee...

Perhaps my argument is not clear enough, but it feels like we are not arguing the same point. I have no problem with technology, simply that kids should not be the product. There are plenty of higher-quality alternatives, just like there are alternatives to broadcast television and McDonalds.

Re:Facebook Should Halt Instagram Kids Plan, Attorneys Gener... by tjr225 on Saturday May 15, 2021 @11:24AM (#27166016)
There is a massive difference between the absurdist reduction you are proposing and what I am saying could be argued:

Everyone uses the internet.

Re:Facebook Should Halt Instagram Kids Plan, Attorneys Gener... by wreath on Monday May 10, 2021 @01:53PM (#27108808)
> rather than a fantasy world where devices and the internet doesn't exist.

The fantasy world is also the one that the likes of Facebook want to lead us to.