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Re:The Lives of Napoleon by apples_oranges on Monday May 10, 2021 @05:29AM (#27104213)
Napoleon should probably be actively forgotten, there's better people in history worth remembering. He was just a tyrant that caused a lot of suffering and death.
Re:The Lives of Napoleon by asd4232 on Monday May 10, 2021 @05:50AM (#27104323)
Cherrypicking only parts of history you like to be remembered is something totalitarians have always enjoyed. It's always a bad idea if you believe in freedom, human rights and democracy, no exceptions.
Re:The Lives of Napoleon by goto11 on Monday May 10, 2021 @05:43AM (#27104293)
Shouldn't we forget all of history then? Which ruler have not caused suffering or death for somebody?
Re:The Lives of Napoleon by apples_oranges on Monday May 10, 2021 @05:48AM (#27104315)
Maybe I phrased it badly. I think he's viewed too positively / heroically even, I think that's not warranted at all. And his actions should be re-evaluated.

But I'm not a historian, just a guy who likes reading and I haven't read anything yet that justifies for example when a modern day French Presidents honors Napoleon.

Re:The Lives of Napoleon by DyslexicAtheist on Monday May 10, 2021 @08:52AM (#27105435)
> when a modern day French Presidents

Sorry need to pick on the word "modern" because it insinuates these things only happened in the past and are out of the question today when we just have adapted the techniques to get away. Therefore I much recommend Treasure Island[1] which goes into the crimes of "modern" colonialism (French, British, US). In case of France especially interesting is Gabon and it's role until today in financing and legitimizing French wars. If one believes only a fraction of the things in this book it would justify the same language applied to our current systems.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treasure_Islands:_Tax_Havens_a...

Re:The Lives of Napoleon by hef19898 on Monday May 10, 2021 @08:51AM (#27105421)
There is the Code Napoleon, parts of which still form the basis of law in Germany and France. That was pretty progressive. Napoleon also is one the most successful, "best", military leaders in history. Right up there with people like Alexander the Great. His military reforms more or less paved the way for modern militaries ever since.

Historically, most of the Anti-French coalitions were led, and financed, by the British. So they are as much guilty of the Napoleonic Wars as Napoleon himself.

Do yes, Napoleon definitely is on of history's greats. Definitely worth remembering. And he would be even more so if he was a true class a a-hole. These people definitely should never be forgotten.

Re:The Lives of Napoleon by nickik on Tuesday May 11, 2021 @05:01AM (#27115857)
> Napoleon also is one the most successful, "best", military leaders in history.

The "best" most successful leaders don't get soundly beaten over and over again and eventually lose everything.

> Right up there with people like Alexander the Great.

Highly questionable, Alexander the Great actually won and won everywhere and didn't lose his empire until he died.

Napoleon is vastly overestimated in Western history. Not to mention that he left his solderers behind multiple times after his mistakes had gotten them captured over and over again.

He literally was the commander in control of the worst military failure in basically all of human history.

He had initiative and was a good battle leader at the helm of the most powerful country that was already very successful before he took over, but as all around military commander and strategist he had serious problems.

> Historically, most of the Anti-French coalitions were led, and financed, by the British. So they are as much guilty of the Napoleonic Wars as Napoleon himself.

The British are responsible French revolutionary armies moving into Netherlands, Norther Italy, Egypt and Switzerland? Britain is responsible for Napoleon leading 600k people into Russia?

After the Revolution the Revolutionary government including were seriously attempting to expand in all directions peace was very temporary. Russia tried peace with Napoleon but only subservience was good enough and that trigger an invasion.

> Do yes, Napoleon definitely is on of history's greats. Definitely worth remembering. And he would be even more so if he was a true class a a-hole. These people definitely should never be forgotten.

I agree he should be remembered, as most history should.

Re:The Lives of Napoleon by hef19898 on Tuesday May 11, 2021 @09:35AM (#27117925)
Napoleon blundered the Russian campaign, and as a direct result the Spanish one. Which got him to Elba. Only to come back and get a very close loss at Waterloo. That makes two serious defeats. All other campaigns were won since Egypt. Wellington was a worthy opponent so.

Was he power hungry? Sure. More than others? I don't think so, just more successful. Russia, at that time, was the only continental power left as a potential ally of the British. Which had opposed the French in every single war before. So yes, it was a viable campaign. One that cost him everything in the end. It was, IMHO, the last period which allowed for decisive battles. And Napoleon was really good at those.

He had issues in diplomacy. No surprise as the upstart among old nobility, so. And his economic policies were lacking as well. Doesn't mean that he is among the best military leaders so far. And again, a lot of his policies were really progressive. And sure, he built upon the Revolution. Nobody exists in a vacuum, Alexander built on his father's achievements. Ceasar on the Roman Republic. Just like everyone else.

Re:The Lives of Napoleon by nickik on Tuesday May 11, 2021 @06:51PM (#27124625)
Well he lost in Russian campaign. But after that there was still all of central Europe between him and Russian army. He then lost more in eastern German refusing to negotiate. Then Austria joined the war and he continued losing in Germany. Then he left Germany to France and lost in France again.

> Only to come back and get a very close loss at Waterloo.

Even had he won at Waterloo, there was 0% change it would not have ended the same way.

> That makes two serious defeats.

Actually far more then two.

> Wellington was a worthy opponent so.

Wellington is overrated, the reason Waterloo is so hyped its because its the only victory of the British on land and they did that with Prussian support. The Russian defeated Napoleon more then anybody else, and likely the Austrians after that.

> So yes, it was a viable campaign.

I'm not gone say it was not viable. But in terms of risk reward it was still bad strategy. He had many political options other then full on invading Russia.

> He had issues in diplomacy. No surprise as the upstart among old nobility, so.

They actually made amazing offers to him the he refused.

> Just like everyone else.

I would agree. I don't think he was uniquely bad. I'm just saying that I don't really think he ranks among the very best general/statesmen.

Re:The Lives of Napoleon by somedangedname on Tuesday May 11, 2021 @12:17AM (#27114163)
Also he inspired this excellent chart with his disastrous Russian campaign:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/29/Minard.p...

Trigger warning: dead Frenchmen.

Re:The Lives of Napoleon by Foobar8568 on Monday May 10, 2021 @06:05AM (#27104383)
Read a bit about the French revolution, related wars or what Napoleon has done for France before spouting such non-sense.
Re:The Lives of Napoleon by asd4232 on Monday May 10, 2021 @06:01AM (#27104363)
Yeah, it's one thing to question how historical figures are portrayed, and another to support actively erasing historical figures who did bad things by present day's moral standards.

I think it's best to remember history as it is, no worship or mixing it with present-day politics needed. Learning from history can be useful, but actions of historical individuals should also be seen in context of the world they lived in.

Re:The Lives of Napoleon by misiti3780 on Monday May 10, 2021 @09:32AM (#27105789)
Re:The Lives of Napoleon by MomoXenosaga on Monday May 10, 2021 @07:42AM (#27104841)
Napoleon is Europe's Oda Nobunaga. A demon who changed Europe forever.
Re:The Lives of Napoleon by holoduke on Monday May 10, 2021 @08:40AM (#27105324)
He is one of the key persons who managed to reduce the power of religious institutions. And thats a good thing. Religion created an exceptional cruel period in Europe for about 1300 years.
Re:The Lives of Napoleon by misiti3780 on Monday May 10, 2021 @09:36AM (#27105825)
He also dismantled feudalism - that was pretty good for most Europeans - no?
Re:The Lives of Napoleon by nickik on Tuesday May 11, 2021 @05:03AM (#27115868)
He didn't actually. Feudalism had ended long before. Feudalism is usually consider for early to high middle ages, by the late middle ages and early modern period the social structure had already changed considerably.
Re:The Lives of Napoleon by misiti3780 on Tuesday May 11, 2021 @01:25PM (#27120823)
"Napoleon extended French legislation dismantling feudal property relations to annexed territories"

https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1057/9780230236738_8

Seems like he ended it in some places - no ?

Re:The Lives of Napoleon by nickik on Tuesday May 11, 2021 @06:42PM (#27124518)
The problem is that the world 'feudal' is very overloaded. There are some historians that basically refuse to use it outside of a very limited perspective. Other historians (mostly non-medieval historians) use it for basically everything from 700 AD to 1700 AD. Medieval historians are not very happy with this.

The paper basically mentions this here:

> First, by the eighteenth century feudalism was primarily (but not solely) a system of property law rather than a mode of production or a form of social domination.

So basically their argument is that the type of property law changed under Napoleon. And that is probably fair (I need to read the whole paper). But I would say that 'ended feudalism'. Its probably a good thing, I would agree.

I must admit I don't know enough about property relation in France. I would like to read this paper in more detail. I read far more about Russia and Britain, stemming form my dislike of France.

Re:The Lives of Napoleon by lostlogin on Monday May 10, 2021 @05:34AM (#27104246)
Is there a leader who is know for their military conquests that you couldn’t say the same about?
Re:The Lives of Napoleon by apples_oranges on Monday May 10, 2021 @05:46AM (#27104306)
Sure, many generals who didn't start the wars they fought.
Re:The Lives of Napoleon by keiferski on Monday May 10, 2021 @05:57AM (#27104350)
This is a misunderstanding of the situation. Napoleon largely “started” his wars because the rest of monarchical Europe was conspiring to have him removed.
Re:The Lives of Napoleon by Foobar8568 on Monday May 10, 2021 @06:08AM (#27104394)
Conspiring? Other monarchies basically went to war to stop the French revolution so before Napoleon was even known (Napoleon got known through his victory in the "siege de Toulon" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Toulon )
Re:The Lives of Napoleon by keiferski on Monday May 10, 2021 @06:17AM (#27104432)
Yes, of course I’m oversimplifying it. The greater point being that Napoleon didn’t start the series of wars as a conquerer, which is how he is often portrayed (especially in English language history.)
Re:The Lives of Napoleon by nickik on Tuesday May 11, 2021 @05:06AM (#27115887)
The French revolutionary regime started the wars and literally expend in all direction and were absorbing country after county.

Instead of negotiation an end to war they attempted to take much of Europe and Napoleon continued that.

Peace was temporary and only as long as you followed what Napoleon wanted.

Russia tried peace with Napoleon but they realized that Napoleon only accepted piece if he was in control and could dedicated all policies they should. Once they didn't he invaded.

Re:The Lives of Napoleon by throwaway59553 on Monday May 10, 2021 @06:21AM (#27104446)
He was one of the greatest men in History, and everyone should look up to him as an example.