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Re:SpaceX launches Starlink sats in record 10th liftoff, lan... by simonh on Sunday May 09, 2021 @04:36PM (#27099490)
The essential features of the F9 that made it capable of propulsive landing were an accident. After the success of the F1 SpaceX didn’t have the resources to develop a larger engine, so they built the bigger rocket by just adding a cluster of engines to the first stage. This is far from ideal because multiple small engines gives poorer power to weight than fewer big engines, but SpaceX hoped to gain cost advantages by mass producing the engines.

The original plan for recovering the F9 first stage was to use parachutes and this was tried with the first couple of launches, but the boosters broke up on re-entry. That’s when the idea of a re-entry burn came up, and from that the concept of a propulsive landing.

But propulsive landing is only possible with the F9 because it has a central engine and the engines are small enough to throttle down low enough to do a suicide burn. You have to have an engine at or very close to the centre of the vehicle for it to work. But this 9 engine cluster with a central engine was not originally designed with propulsive landing in mind. It was an accident.

If SpaceX had better funding early on, they probably would have developed a larger main engine for the booster, which wouldn’t have been able to throttle low enough to stick a landing and may not have had a cluster arrangement with a central engine anyway. This is also why the other rocket companies mostly can’t adapt their rockets for reusability easily.

Re:SpaceX launches Starlink sats in record 10th liftoff, lan... by Denvercoder9 on Sunday May 09, 2021 @05:06PM (#27099757)
> This is far from ideal because multiple small engines gives poorer power to weight than fewer big engines

Are you sure about that? The Merlin engine Falcon 9 uses has the highest thrust-to-weight ratio of any rocket engine currently being used, more than double that of the much more powerful RD-180 used on the Atlas V. You'll lose some advantage because structural support and plumbing for more engines is heavier, but I'd expect they'll still come out ahead. The Raptor has been downsized from the original plans, and Musk has said that was to improve thrust-to-weight ratio.

Re:SpaceX launches Starlink sats in record 10th liftoff, lan... by simonh on Sunday May 09, 2021 @05:41PM (#27100081)
It’s a fair point but how many engines have been through such an aggressive optimisation and upgrade program? Arguably a bigger brother of Merlin going through the same process should be more efficient.
Re:SpaceX launches Starlink sats in record 10th liftoff, lan... by Denvercoder9 on Sunday May 09, 2021 @05:46PM (#27100134)
> Arguably a bigger brother of Merlin going through the same process should be more efficient

Why? I can't think of any reason why more powerful engines would fundamentally be more weight-efficient.

Re:SpaceX launches Starlink sats in record 10th liftoff, lan... by simonh on Sunday May 09, 2021 @07:33PM (#27100914)
The volume of an object goes up with the cube of it’s diameter, while its surface area increases relative to the square of its diameter. That means if you quadruple the volume of a combustion chamber and nozzle, the area of the chamber and nozzle only doubles. A similar effect applies to the plumbing. That doesn’t mean the mass only doubles, it’s a bit more than that, but less than 4X.
Re:SpaceX launches Starlink sats in record 10th liftoff, lan... by Denvercoder9 on Monday May 10, 2021 @08:46AM (#27105376)
Rocket engines are far too complex to simply apply the cube-square law. In particular, the thrust of a rocket engine does not scale with the volume of the combustion chamber, but with the nozzle exit area (since exhaust velocity is independent of engine size). Thus, following your reasoning, thrust goes with the square of engine diameter, and weight as well, so thrust-to-weight is independent of the engine size.
Re:SpaceX launches Starlink sats in record 10th liftoff, lan... by Veedrac on Monday May 10, 2021 @07:58AM (#27104966)
Most parts of a rocket engine are structurally pressure vessels, where this rule doesn't apply, as wall thickness also scales with size.

As I understand it, the main driver of scale is that the combustion chamber has an optimal size. Too small and you get incomplete mixing, too large and you get instabilities.

Re:SpaceX launches Starlink sats in record 10th liftoff, lan... by nickik on Monday May 10, 2021 @01:52AM (#27103118)
> The original plan for recovering the F9 first stage was to use parachutes and this was tried with the first couple of launches

That wrong. They tried this on the Falcon 9, not the Falcon 9.

Re-usability was their goal early on and and it was just a question of how to get there. Its not an accident. You could of course claim the exact architecture they have is an accident. But then again had they developed this larger engine they might have moved to a larger vehicle with 5 of those before going to a fully reusable Starship style vehicle.

The important point is consistently worked towards a known goal.

Re:SpaceX launches Starlink sats in record 10th liftoff, lan... by imron on Sunday May 09, 2021 @05:05PM (#27099753)
It’s amazing how much scientific progress is caused by accident.