News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Ursula Le Guin Books by KingOfCoders on Saturday May 08, 2021 @11:14AM (#27087855)
If I would allowed to only own one book, it would be "The Dispossessed".

This books explains so many different sides of humanity.

On a more personal note: After reading it a dozen times there are still parts I need to cry. Just thinking about the strong emotions in parts of the book waters my eyes right now.

Re:Ursula Le Guin Books by erikpukinskis on Saturday May 08, 2021 @12:00PM (#27088298)
That book, more than anything, helped me to see anarchism as a viable organizational system and not just people “doing whatever they want”.
Re:Ursula Le Guin Books by howfrontoage on Saturday May 08, 2021 @01:29PM (#27089116)
Honestly I disagree they had anarchism. Seemed they had a sort of collectivism where they replaced some authority with "computers that hand out assignments" and pseudo-authority from the capital (Anares? I forgot).

It looked like an odd system where presumably you were free but conditions were so hars and social pressure so strong that you did what was required. Sweden in space desert.

Re:Ursula Le Guin Books by sdenton4 on Saturday May 08, 2021 @03:22PM (#27089947)
Anarchism means 'without leaders,' not without society.

Actual anarchists are generally interested in how to design a society that can function at a high level without leaders. This usually involves some mix of process and committees, with some serious thought about how to handle delegation of decision making without concentrating power in too few hands.

Re:Ursula Le Guin Books by howfrontoage on Sunday May 09, 2021 @03:40AM (#27094044)
Honestly sounds like an extreme form of communism.

One of the benefits of hierarchy is that decision comes with personal responsibility (skin in the game?). Diluting all responsibility onto the whole population mean no accountability and shadow power structures.

Re:Ursula Le Guin Books by KingOfCoders on Sunday May 09, 2021 @01:13AM (#27093403)
I do think it is more about a form of Anarcho-syndicalism

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarcho-syndicalism

"social pressure so strong"

Wasn't that one of the points of the book?

Re:Ursula Le Guin Books by howfrontoage on Sunday May 09, 2021 @03:30AM (#27093998)
Indeed, due to the extreme conditions, social pressure and conditioning since a young age, they were free in name only.
Re:Ursula Le Guin Books by ajmurmann on Saturday May 08, 2021 @12:08PM (#27088371)
I really liked how balanced the view is the book takes. There was a point where I thought this was Ayn Rand in space, but it's definitely not. It's quite human and shows the inherent flaws that will come organizing humans either way.
Re:Ursula Le Guin Books by i_don_t_know on Sunday May 09, 2021 @06:35AM (#27094848)
My impression was that they had a form of communism on the moon, with all the associated problems. I didn’t see it as anarchic or libertarian. Quite the opposite, it felt unfree like communist societies in Eastern Europe.
Re:Ursula Le Guin Books by timonoko on Saturday May 08, 2021 @12:39PM (#27088663)
"Dispossed", "Left Hand of Darkness" and "Strangers" (by Gardner Dozois) are about the same icy word. And I cant remember which is which, except Strangers is the creepiest. I do not cry, but Liraun's final words pain me so much that I cant breathe.
Re:Ursula Le Guin Books by Emigre_ on Saturday May 08, 2021 @01:20PM (#27089040)
Thanks for the recommendation, I’ll read “Strangers”. I liked “Dispossessed” and “The Left Hand of Darkness”, specially the later. I have to ask - which “icy word” you mean?... :)
Re:Ursula Le Guin Books by timonoko on Saturday May 08, 2021 @01:32PM (#27089158)
As I said I cant really remember which is which. Or maybe the Dispossed was about two worlds and only the other one was hostile and cold?
Re:Ursula Le Guin Books by AnIdiotOnTheNet on Saturday May 08, 2021 @02:38PM (#27089653)
The Left Hand of Darkness takes place on a very cold world. The Dispossessed takes place on a pretty normal seeming world and its somewhat less hospitable moon.
Re:Ursula Le Guin Books by Emigre_ on Saturday May 08, 2021 @05:42PM (#27091004)
Oh you mean “icy world”? With an L. You wrote “word”. Yeah, The Left Hand... is the one in a frozen planet. Great book.
Re:Ursula Le Guin Books by timonoko on Sunday May 09, 2021 @08:49AM (#27095540)
English sucks o so many ways.
Re:Ursula Le Guin Books by aquir on Saturday May 08, 2021 @12:34PM (#27088606)
The best book ever! I don't know how many times I read it. My other favourite is The Left Hand of Darkness.
Re:Ursula Le Guin Books by k__ on Saturday May 08, 2021 @11:45AM (#27088162)
Good to know.

I tried "the left hand of darkness" and didn't like it. Somehow it read more like mediocre fantasy than scifi.

Re:Ursula Le Guin Books by wishinghand on Saturday May 08, 2021 @12:26PM (#27088533)
Taking science fiction as positing a technological change and then writing a story about how the world is given that change, Left Hand of Darkness is absolutely scifi. It wonders what one human society might be like if cut off for centuries or more after a diaspora. The ambassador in the story seeing if the world can be brought back into the fold is classic scifi. It’s even more nuanced because the ambassador narrator isn’t some emotionless ubermensch, but a sexist fish out of water.
Re:Ursula Le Guin Books by Aeolun on Saturday May 08, 2021 @11:51AM (#27088227)
Because the science part takes a backseat to the cultural exploration.

I guess that could be either fantasy or science fiction, but since it has spaceships it must be the latter.

Re:Ursula Le Guin Books by kijin on Saturday May 08, 2021 @12:00PM (#27088302)
> since it has spaceships it must be the latter.

I look forward to the day when spaceships become as mundane as trains and helicopters, so that their presence alone will not make a novel "science fiction".

Le Guin never identified her books as science fiction. Sadly the world can't seem to look at a book without shoving it into the bounds of a familiar genre. This doesn't help readers, either, as GP was apparently given the wrong expectations by these labels.

Re:Ursula Le Guin Books by minnca on Saturday May 08, 2021 @12:14PM (#27088426)
I'm a big Le Guin fan and I consider her books to be sort of like "anthropological science fiction," as in they're focused on the societies and people of science fictional societies and less so on the science behind those societies.
Re:Ursula Le Guin Books by 8fGTBjZxBcHq on Saturday May 08, 2021 @12:33PM (#27088603)
Yeah that's a big part of her thing right. She was raised by anthropologists I think? It's very present in a lot of her books and Always Coming Home is like 1/3 straight fictional ethnography.
Re:Ursula Le Guin Books by vidarh on Saturday May 08, 2021 @12:51PM (#27088777)
Both her parents were anthropologists. This is her father [1], and this was her mother [2].

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A._L._Kroeber

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodora_Kroeber

Re:Ursula Le Guin Books by sangnoir on Saturday May 08, 2021 @02:28PM (#27089578)
A lot of science fiction is indistinguishable from fantasy if your swap positron-brained AI -> wise elves/demi-god, alien invaders -> orcs or an elven race (depending on how advanced the plot demands they ought to be, relative to humans), teleportation -> teleportation, non-real-world tech/discovery/invention required by plot -> magic. A few stories managed to straddle both genres (like the Merchant Princess series by @cstross).

My observation is that most sci-fi is set in a world mostly similar to ours, except for one aspect/tech that's dialed to 11. Fantasy has a much looser attachment to our world, and sometimes the weirder, the better. Also, each has its own genre-tropes that can be used (or subverted) but barely translate to the other - I'm yet to see a fantasy story that is grounded in egalitarianism.

Re:Ursula Le Guin Books by akiselev on Saturday May 08, 2021 @04:15PM (#27090292)
> My observation is that most sci-fi is set in a world mostly similar to ours, except for one aspect/tech that's dialed to 11. Fantasy has a much looser attachment to our world, and sometimes the weirder, the better.

I don't remember where I read it but what you just described is one of the best strategies for writing scifi that many of the most well known authors used. I'd wager it is the defining quality of science fiction from a historical perspective: it's a form of fiction that split the difference between vanilla fiction and fantasy that just happened to grow popular in the 20th century's golden era of scientific research. This was the era of boundless optimism with flying cars and the World Fair's Futurama so a fuzzy genre that took our world and changed one abstract thing or dialed it up to 11 (alien invasion! total surveillance! AI! galaxy far far away!) became science fiction because authors chose convenient plot points based on the cultural zeitgeist of the time.

On the surface the difference between science fiction and fantasy isn't all that big ("Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic") but I think fundamentally they're different approaches to imagining a literary universe. The former is based in reality but the "science fiction" part is a plot device to implement the one aspect of the universe the author wants to change, whereas in fantasy it's supposed to be a new universe whose rules/laws are only vaguely related to our own because the author just happens to also be human.

Edit five minutes later: Found it! Philip K Dick wrote in a letter (from The Collected Short Stories Volume 1):

> I will define science fiction, first, by saying what sf is not. It cannot be defined as "a story (or novel or play) set in the future," since there exists such a thing as space adventure, which is set in the future but is not sf: it is just that: adventures, fights and wars in the future in space involving super-advanced technology. Why, then, is it not science fiction? It would seem to be, and Doris Lessing (e.g.) supposes that it is. However, space adventure lacks the distinct new idea that is the essential ingredient. Also, there can be science fiction set in the present: the alternate world story or novel. So if we separate sf from the future and also from ultra-advanced technology, what then do we have that can be called sf?

> This world must differ from the given in at least one way, and this one way must be sufficient to give rise to events that could not occur in our society -- or in any known society present or past. There must be a coherent idea involved in this dislocation; that is, the dislocation must be a conceptual one, not merely a trivial or bizarre one -- this is the essence of science fiction, the conceptual dislocation within the society so that as a result a new society is generated in the author's mind,

> Fantasy involves that which general opinion regards as impossible; science fiction involves that which general opinion regards as possible under the right circumstances.

> Thus "good science fiction" is a value term, not an objective thing, and yet, I think, there really is such a thing, objectively, as good science fiction.

Re:Ursula Le Guin Books by TheOtherHobbes on Saturday May 08, 2021 @01:46PM (#27089265)
That's true of most SF. SF is primarily political, and has been since at least the late 50s. Although there is hard SF where the science leads, it's rarer - and less interesting - than SF which uses imaginary technologies to set a scene for political and social questions.

IMO Le Guin and someone like Heinlein were two sides of the same strand of SF. They're both moralists rather than technical speculators, and in their own way they have a didactic streak where the morality is confidently presented but rather heavy-handed.

Although The Dispossessed is politically ambiguous, it's not ambiguous in an unfathomable, mysterious, or unconfident way. Neither is something like Dune, or the Culture novels. Or even Asimov's Foundation.

Part of the appeal of these authors is that they seem quite sure of their political and anthropological sophistication. While their characters may struggle, there's never a sense the authors feel they could be completely blindsided by human or alien anthropology, or steamrollered by non-human influences which are incomprehensible and impossible to deal with.

Re:Ursula Le Guin Books by KingOfCoders on Sunday May 09, 2021 @01:11AM (#27093395)
"Because the science part takes a backseat to the cultural exploration."

This is what I explained to my high school teacher when she talked sf down because I wanted to write about Alastor by Vance.

Re:Ursula Le Guin Books by k__ on Saturday May 08, 2021 @12:02PM (#27088317)
I don't know.

Ada Palmer's "Terra Ignota" spoke more to me, and it's also more cultural exploration than science.

Re:Ursula Le Guin Books by worldsayshi on Saturday May 08, 2021 @12:23PM (#27088499)
I read it and I really enjoyed it. However it felt more like dipping my toes than engrossing myself in the world. I felt like I wanted a whole series rather than one book. It felt like so many details of a world with a functional but flawed anarchistic society were left unexplored.