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Re:Ask HN: How to attract perm Snr Engs when the contract ma... by bradstewart on Thursday May 06, 2021 @09:54AM (#27063222)
> 5. Raises that matter. Not some 1 or 2 pct insult. There's no excuse for that. None.

Is a big one. I am very unsure why companies seem so reluctant to do this when the cost of hiring and training a replacement are non-negligible.

Re:Ask HN: How to attract perm Snr Engs when the contract ma... by techsupporter on Thursday May 06, 2021 @11:48AM (#27065056)
I think a big reason is because that "1% to 2% base pay raise" gets hidden behind bonuses that (usually, but not always) seem bigger, plus stock-based pay that tends to be bigger every year (until it isn't).

For me, it's not as gigantic of a deal because as long as my raises cover the rising cost of rent--which it might not this year due to where I live becoming even more massively popular in the wake of COVID--then I am fine with this trade because I hate interviewing and I hate change even more. I used to spend the bulk of my annual bonus and stock grants and saving a little; in recent years, I've flipped that.

Re:Ask HN: How to attract perm Snr Engs when the contract ma... by bradstewart on Thursday May 06, 2021 @01:54PM (#27066879)
If I was seeing a consistent 10% YoY gain in my total compensation, you're right--I probably wouldn't care much about the 1-2% base increase.

But that wasn't the case, at least for me.

Re:Ask HN: How to attract perm Snr Engs when the contract ma... by tut-urut-utut on Thursday May 06, 2021 @10:08AM (#27063431)
Because it works?

With those 1 or 2 percent raises being a norm almost everywhere, it's hardly a reason to actually leave the company. And saving for not doing 5 to 10 percent on everyone every year are much bigger than an occasional hiring and training costs.

Re:Ask HN: How to attract perm Snr Engs when the contract ma... by learc83 on Thursday May 06, 2021 @10:19AM (#27063622)
>With those 1 or 2 percent raises being a norm almost everywhere, it's hardly a reason to actually leave the company.

But it is a reason to leave the company because you can easily get 10% or more switching jobs.

>occasional hiring and training costs.

Hiring and training costs are enormous, and they aren't occasional when you're talking about software companies with very high turnover. If you're incentivizing job hopping every few years, the average programmer at your company could be spending 25% or more of their tenure ramping up to full capacity.

Re:Ask HN: How to attract perm Snr Engs when the contract ma... by aphextron on Thursday May 06, 2021 @10:26AM (#27063734)
>But it is a reason to leave the company because you can easily get 10% or more switching jobs.

Depends on the company. Mine is 100% remote since COVID, has generous benefits, a strict 9-5 M-F culture, and plenty of interesting work to do as much (or as little) as I have an appetite for. I make maybe 10% under market rate, but it would take at least a 50% raise to get me to leave. That's never happening, as it would be well over what anyone short of FAANG would pay for a senior dev, so there are definitely intangibles about a work environment that are worth more to me than another $15-$20k a year.

Re:Ask HN: How to attract perm Snr Engs when the contract ma... by learc83 on Thursday May 06, 2021 @10:44AM (#27064009)
Right but there's an assumption of all else being equal when making a comparison like that.

Obviously you can get away with paying below market rates if you provide some other benefits to make up for it.

Re:Ask HN: How to attract perm Snr Engs when the contract ma... by pessimizer on Thursday May 06, 2021 @10:55AM (#27064159)
What if there are identical "intangibles" at the place offering you a 10% raise?
Re:Ask HN: How to attract perm Snr Engs when the contract ma... by omgwtfbbq on Thursday May 06, 2021 @11:09AM (#27064358)
Unless you know someone inside the company I'd guess that's pretty hard to judge from the outside or through a few interviews.
Re:Ask HN: How to attract perm Snr Engs when the contract ma... by anaerobicover on Thursday May 06, 2021 @01:12PM (#27066283)
Seconding this. I was in my previous position at a little under 5 years, with in fact substantive raises (8-10%) each. But still I jumped 15% immediately in base salary by joining to another company.
Re:Ask HN: How to attract perm Snr Engs when the contract ma... by dspillett on Thursday May 06, 2021 @10:20AM (#27063647)
> Because it works?

Only if you have people who crave stability more than they need/want more compensation or who are invested in the work with you (i.e. they find it _really_ interesting). Otherwise it just creates churn, as people need to leave to get much of a bump up and leave the next place next time they want a bump up too.

So it only works overall if most people are in the "wanting stability" group.

This is probably part of the driver towards contract work rather than perm: if you need to switch jobs regularly to keep improving your conditions, then why not have the extra flexibility and/or extra compensation of working contract?

Re:Ask HN: How to attract perm Snr Engs when the contract ma... by giantg2 on Thursday May 06, 2021 @10:15AM (#27063542)
It becomes a reason over time. The raises are less than inflation, so over time the external jobs are more appealing since those postings have to stay competitive. That's why people jump from company to company every 2 years for the pay bump.