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Re:I Used to Write for Sports Illustrated. Now I Deliver Pac... by eplanit on Sunday May 02, 2021 @03:52PM (#27018411)
Meh -- they've done themselves such harm in recent years by embracing activism and deliberate bias that it's hard for me to feel too bad for the industry.

That said, I'll applaud whichever journalists are brave enough to start pushing their industry/art back towards objectivity and diversity of perspective.

Re:I Used to Write for Sports Illustrated. Now I Deliver Pac... by ineedasername on Sunday May 02, 2021 @07:29PM (#27020034)
it's hard for me to feel too bad for the industry

It's important to understand the causal direction here. As the industry took hit after hit while the internet gained dominance, media outlet like Fox News pioneered highly opinionated reporting & commentary, and it worked. Viewers & readers were more attracted to content that raised an emotional response. There's blame to put on the industry, but I can't separate that from the how the internet changed the economics of news media & how that mixed with human nature.

Incidentally, if you're looking for a good source of non-opinionated reporting, Reuters is probably one of the best. It tends to be more straightforward factual reporting, and I can't find any media ratings that place it outside the center/minimal-bias zone.

Re:I Used to Write for Sports Illustrated. Now I Deliver Pac... by kevin_thibedeau on Sunday May 02, 2021 @11:42PM (#27021385)
Humans give greater credence to those expressing negative opinions. The media and politicians take advantage of this to get attention and votes. In the past the limited competition in the media allowed the voice of reason to prevail. Now the race to the bottom has made that a losing proposition for running a business selling information.
Re:I Used to Write for Sports Illustrated. Now I Deliver Pac... by Mediterraneo10 on Sunday May 02, 2021 @03:58PM (#27018470)
Embracing activism isn't necessarily a shooting oneself in the foot, it can be a way of trying to ensure greater profitability. A case in point is The Guardian which took a huge turn in the last decade ago from traditional British working-class themes to trans issues and the specific kind of race debates originating from the US. By doing so, the newspaper could, firstly, win the allegiance of self-identified "woke" readers (who are often affluent and thus a target for advertisers). But even for other readers, culture-war-related reporting can get people all fired up and thus generate views and ad impressions.
Re:I Used to Write for Sports Illustrated. Now I Deliver Pac... by fossuser on Sunday May 02, 2021 @04:04PM (#27018529)
Sure and that's why they do it, but it's feels like cutting off your nose to spite your face.

I think the future will mostly be the best writers being directly supported by people interested in their beat.

I'm not sure how generic media orgs will continue on, but I'd expect the quality to continue to degrade.

Re:I Used to Write for Sports Illustrated. Now I Deliver Pac... by michaelt on Monday May 03, 2021 @03:37AM (#27022572)
Interesting idea. What do you imagine would happen to the global health correspondent when there's not a pandemic going on, or the war correspondent when there's not a war going on?
Re:I Used to Write for Sports Illustrated. Now I Deliver Pac... by CalRobert on Sunday May 02, 2021 @05:16PM (#27019103)
I pay for the Guardian mostly because it's the only paper I know that covers global stories and gives climate breakdown anything resembling the degree of coverage it deserves. For a while I subscribed to The Times, but felt dirty supporting a Murdoch-owned paper.
Re:I Used to Write for Sports Illustrated. Now I Deliver Pac... by hardlianotion on Sunday May 02, 2021 @07:06PM (#27019910)
I used to get the Guardian paper delivered - that makes me feel sad.
Re:I Used to Write for Sports Illustrated. Now I Deliver Pac... by tablespoon on Sunday May 02, 2021 @05:21PM (#27019150)
> Meh -- they've done themselves such harm in recent years by embracing activism and deliberate bias that it's hard for me to feel too bad for the industry.

Journalism's financial problems predate "recent years," and perhaps those problems have actually lead to or exacerbated the problems you're complaining about. E.g. investigative journalism is hard, time-consuming, and expensive; an underfunded, short-staffed newspaper may turn to other, cheaper things to fill its pages and attract readers.

Re:I Used to Write for Sports Illustrated. Now I Deliver Pac... by usbline on Sunday May 02, 2021 @04:09PM (#27018573)
Faux-objective journalism is such a soulless drag. Everyone has biases, attempting to hide them is just gutless.
Re:I Used to Write for Sports Illustrated. Now I Deliver Pac... by chmod600 on Sunday May 02, 2021 @04:27PM (#27018713)
The presence of bias in an individual jounalist as a human is expected. But being a professional means having some standards that boost trust in the profession overall.

Clearly you wouldn't say that judges and police and prosecutors should just follow their biases and go after whoever they want or protect whoever they want.

Journalists don't have any legal obligation to follow standards, but they do have a professional obligation.

Re:I Used to Write for Sports Illustrated. Now I Deliver Pac... by usbline on Sunday May 02, 2021 @04:45PM (#27018843)
Do you know where I can find these agreed upon standards for journalists?
Re:I Used to Write for Sports Illustrated. Now I Deliver Pac... by jsrcout on Sunday May 02, 2021 @04:53PM (#27018903)
Re:I Used to Write for Sports Illustrated. Now I Deliver Pac... by usbline on Sunday May 02, 2021 @05:41PM (#27019310)
Ah, good. These don't appear to be legally binding at all. That's good news honestly!
Re:I Used to Write for Sports Illustrated. Now I Deliver Pac... by anchpop on Sunday May 02, 2021 @05:55PM (#27019420)
> Journalists don't have any legal obligation to follow standards
Re:I Used to Write for Sports Illustrated. Now I Deliver Pac... by usbline on Sunday May 02, 2021 @06:02PM (#27019473)
who are you quoting?
Re:I Used to Write for Sports Illustrated. Now I Deliver Pac... by strken on Sunday May 02, 2021 @07:36PM (#27020060)
It quotes the comment you replied to two hours ago, about six comments directly up from this.
Re:I Used to Write for Sports Illustrated. Now I Deliver Pac... by totalZero on Sunday May 02, 2021 @05:15PM (#27019091)
Telling the truth for a living may be a drag, but playing on the readers' emotions and biases for ad traffic revenue seems far more soulless by comparison.
Re:I Used to Write for Sports Illustrated. Now I Deliver Pac... by StanislavPetrov on Sunday May 02, 2021 @09:34PM (#27020757)
Most people I know don't mind reading a journalist that is open with their biases as long as that journalist is objective when it comes to facts. The problem in today's media is that biased journalists ignore facts or just outright lie when the facts don't jive with the narrative they are trying to push. Its one thing to report on a story and spin the facts in such a way that correlates with your perspective and entirely another thing to conceal facts or invent your own. Most legacy "journalism" has devolved into a toxic brew of woke hot takes and the uncritical, anonymous dissemination of intelligence agency assertions.

The Guardian was mentioned above, and is an excellent example of this. The Guardian never made much attempt to hide their social and political biases in the past, but it was still a widely respected and credible newspaper, even to those who didn't necessarily share the same perspectives. Unfortunately, The Guardian, like most other legacy news outlets, went off the rails at some point over the last 5 years. They stopped reporting the news, and starting inventing it. Anyone following their coverage of the Assange saga saw numerous examples of this such as the, "Manafort met Assange in the embassy" fairy tale (including details like what Manafort was wearing to make the lie extra convincing). The problem is, it never happened! Yet still, 4 years later, it sits on their website, no retraction, no correction. The credibility problem is real.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/nov/27/manafort-hel...

Re:I Used to Write for Sports Illustrated. Now I Deliver Pac... by tjs8rj on Sunday May 02, 2021 @11:49PM (#27021432)
Personally what I find most frustrating is the two-facedness of it. State your bias. Maybe each reporter should have a visible profile above the article below the headline stating their “political compass results”. Why does CNN/Fox News continue to claim they are objective reporting when they have been caught so often failing to do so.

At the least, maybe explaining the other party’s perspective (as still flawed as this would be).

Ex: situation at the border

Republicans call it a crisis, they cite x, y, z. Their main argument is that illegal immigration causes X....

Democrats argue that the situation is at the root because of Y....

Be out about the biases. We all have biases, deceptively trying to hide them is worse: be completely out with them.

Re:I Used to Write for Sports Illustrated. Now I Deliver Pac... by michaelt on Monday May 03, 2021 @04:22AM (#27022753)
> Everyone has biases, attempting to hide them is just gutless.

I think this is situation-dependent.

A lot of product review journalism is nigh-worthless because giving robust reviews would cut off the freebies, previews and ad spending they depend on.

It's easy to imagine how that could be more objective: Just stop accepting freebies.

On the other hand, some situations are almost impossible to make objective: If you're a political journalist reporting on a politician doing foo today, and you know previously they promised not-foo, does reporting that context make your reporting more objective or less?

Re:I Used to Write for Sports Illustrated. Now I Deliver Pac... by goatinaboat on Sunday May 02, 2021 @04:39PM (#27018799)
Faux-objective journalism is such a soulless drag. Everyone has biases, attempting to hide them is just gutless.

If doctors just prescribed whatever gave the bigger commission from drug companies, would you ever trust a doctor?

Re:I Used to Write for Sports Illustrated. Now I Deliver Pac... by moate on Sunday May 02, 2021 @06:02PM (#27019478)
I mean...many of them do? At least in America, that's a thing. Now it might not be the ONLY factor (I don't believe most MDs are out here prescribing things that patients wouldn't find beneficial) but it plays into their equation. And occasionally we do hear stories about pill farms...
Re:I Used to Write for Sports Illustrated. Now I Deliver Pac... by Nasrudith on Sunday May 02, 2021 @07:19PM (#27019975)
I have seen the opposite with doctors in my experience, going with what is the cheapest working option for the patient be it handing out several free sample packs to try a drug to checking for best covered option as a default. Like "XR is more expensive but we can subsitute three times a day for as cheap with your minimal plan vs okay you have good insurance, I can switch you to XR". I guess it is just good medical practice to help ensure dosage compliance if they aren't trying to ration the expense.
Re:I Used to Write for Sports Illustrated. Now I Deliver Pac... by moate on Sunday May 02, 2021 @10:42PM (#27021096)
"Many" in my post was not meant to imply "most". I have no idea how many doctors are more focused on the money vs saving lives, but it's >0%. I will say my experience as a patient has reflected what you're describing, and that it would likely be that "doing what is best for my patient" often involves doing what's best for their bank account.

I just know I worked in pharma advertising, and we def identified who helped push product. There's a reason the industry is so heavily regulated, well actually many reasons, but one of them is def because drug companies exploit US insurance practices using copay and other programs which allow. And people doctors definitely have different attitudes when speaking with "Dude with platinum level insurance" and "Dude who has no insurance and works as a waiter".

Re:I Used to Write for Sports Illustrated. Now I Deliver Pac... by usbline on Sunday May 02, 2021 @04:43PM (#27018827)
I wasn't aware that journalists prescribed medicine. Don't be disingenuous!
Re:I Used to Write for Sports Illustrated. Now I Deliver Pac... by goatinaboat on Sunday May 02, 2021 @04:56PM (#27018929)
It’s called an analogy, it’s illustrating a situation where a professional’s interests are misaligned with the users of their services.
Re:I Used to Write for Sports Illustrated. Now I Deliver Pac... by usbline on Sunday May 02, 2021 @05:39PM (#27019295)
It's not a very good analogy!
Re:I Used to Write for Sports Illustrated. Now I Deliver Pac... by tryonenow on Sunday May 02, 2021 @04:28PM (#27018724)
So the fact that all information is biased is an excuse to force your own ideological bias into every communication?

This is as much of a fallacy as the common "everything is political" refrain. It's nothing but a dangerous rationalization of tribalism which breeds distrust of institutions and disenfranchises political minorities when the entire establishment leans in a particular direction and simultaneously determines the set of "acceptable" or "authoritative" sources. News media, "fact checkers", Wikipedia editors, etc. are implicitly colluding and the results are already manifesting with long term disastrous cultural and political consequences that we are yet to fully witness. There is no excuse for the hyper polarization of modern media, it is a disservice to everyone, and we need to un-normalize the kind of insidious activist journalism that has infested all of our major publications, though the system is self reinforcing at this point.

Re:I Used to Write for Sports Illustrated. Now I Deliver Pac... by jzb on Sunday May 02, 2021 @05:55PM (#27019419)
This is a particularly naive viewpoint on journalism / the publishing industry. Journalists may be the face of the industry, but they're not the primary deciders. They don't control the business decisions, or indeed many of the individual editorial decisions.

Just like one little nugget of anecdata. I used to work at a radio station in a small market that was 1/3 stations run out of the same building by the same owner, an older conservative woman who inherited the business. One station was all-talk (AM) one was country (FM) and the other was classic rock (FM).

All. Three. Stations. Had to carry Rush Limbaugh over the objections of FM program managers. Why? Because Alvina liked Rush. She wanted to blanket the airwaves with his show. And she didn't have to deal with any competition in the little corner of the world where the stations aired. People don't see those decisions, though.

Granted this is a particular egregious example, but by and large TV/radio/cable/etc. programming is at a macro level dictated by upper echelons of the business, not by the front-line reporters or editors.

Print publishing has been gutted over the past 20+ years by a lot of factors. (Radio even longer, see Clear Channel, et al.)

Consolidation. A move from print publishing to web publishing that has required more and more intrusive tracking and obsession with clicks -- not quality, just "how many page views?" and then "how many uniques?" or whatever the metric du jour happens to be. I've been on the publishing side and corporate side, and I've never once heard a company factor quality of content into its advertising decisions. Which means it's a race to the bottom -- not in terms of bias, but in terms of "what gets eyeballs?"

People love to bitch about the quality of journalism, etc. but yet... they keep consuming it. They certainly don't want to pay for good journalism. Not as individuals, not with corporate marketing dollars. If an ad buyer can get 10x the clicks and leads with crap than they can get with well-reasoned and well-researched content? They'll buy crap every time. And blame the journalists/press/publications for the quality and then do it all over again.

Not to mention the effects of Google and Facebook, which are hard to understate.

Google has done a huge number on publications that initially managed to navigate the print -> online model. Its dominance on online ads has done a lot to harm publications, and not only monetarily. Facebook has trained people to expect their information funneled through their feeds and has inserted itself between the audience and publications. Traffic that used to come directly to the publication now funnels through Facebook -- or never actually arrives at the publication at all. Hard to make a buck that way.

This isn't even getting into consolidation of local newspapers by conglomerates and private equity[1].

If front-line journalists are biased one way, I assure you the upper management through ownership are biased in the other direction by and large, excepting (perhaps) some social issues where bean-counters have seen that the winds have changed and it's more profitable to be visibly progressive vs. visibly conservative.

I went corporate a number of years ago because the writing was on the wall. If I'd stayed in publishing as a freelancer / writer / editor it would be years of paddling faster to make the same money. Companies didn't give two shits about quality, just shove something out the door that would play on social and/or SEO. If you think the people doing the work are deciding to embrace that, you're sorely mistaken.

[1] https://prospect.org/health/saving-free-press-private-equity...

Re:I Used to Write for Sports Illustrated. Now I Deliver Pac... by WalterBright on Sunday May 02, 2021 @11:00PM (#27021183)
Why not start your own news publication? Run it according to your own rules.
Re:I Used to Write for Sports Illustrated. Now I Deliver Pac... by jzb on Monday May 03, 2021 @07:33AM (#27023777)
Well, for one thing.. then I'm a publisher, not a journalist. Running a business does not appeal to me in the slightest.

Secondly, most of the problems facing publications are market forces that aren't going to go away just because the person at the helm does care about quality.

There are publications that succeed by the skin of their teeth. LWN for example. But that's a pretty rare, niche example that would be very difficult to replicate.

Re:I Used to Write for Sports Illustrated. Now I Deliver Pac... by WalterBright on Monday May 03, 2021 @04:25PM (#27030202)
Your newspaper can be as simple as a web site you create. There's almost zero cost of entry. It can be grown organically, as you develop a reputation for real journalism. Start small by specializing in articles on one topic like, say, what the city council is doing or what Boeing is doing. Become the go-to source of accurate information on that.

It'd be like the olden days when random people would print and distribute pamphlets like "Common Sense".

Re:I Used to Write for Sports Illustrated. Now I Deliver Pac... by Nasrudith on Sunday May 02, 2021 @07:31PM (#27020043)
I keep on hearing the kvetching about not being willing to pay for good journalism but where the hell can I actually find it? It comes across as pure entitlement on their part, especially since I recall the various youth targetted moral panics like rainbow parties and "pharm parties" of taking literally everything in the medical cabinets like a bowl of skittles and taking them randomly - there were not nearly enough dead bodies or hospitalizations for that level of stupidity. Let alone trivially Google research refutable claims - it is one thing to write at a third grade level, it is another to be out fact checked by third graders.
Re:I Used to Write for Sports Illustrated. Now I Deliver Pac... by sjellis on Monday May 03, 2021 @06:24AM (#27023364)
"solutions journalism" is an really interesting effort to adapt journalism to current realities in a positive way.

"It investigates and explains, in a critical and clear-eyed way, examples of people working toward solutions. It focuses not just on what may be working, but how and why it appears to be working, or alternatively, why it may be stumbling. Using the best available evidence, it delves deep into the how-to’s of problem solving, often structuring stories as puzzles or mysteries that investigate questions like: What models are having success reducing the dropout rate in public schools? How do they actually work? What are they doing differently than others that’s resulting in a better outcome?"

https://medium.com/@soljourno/what-is-solutions-journalism-c...

https://www.solutionsjournalism.org/

Re:I Used to Write for Sports Illustrated. Now I Deliver Pac... by WalterBright on Sunday May 02, 2021 @10:54PM (#27021148)
I'm bemused at newspapers that want to "save the free press" by getting government funding.

(Whoever pays the bills decides the content.)

Re:I Used to Write for Sports Illustrated. Now I Deliver Pac... by ALittleLight on Sunday May 02, 2021 @08:02PM (#27020241)
They didn't choose activism because they are lazy or ideologues (although the industry may increasingly populated by lazy ideologues). The journalism industry chose activism because it sells better than objective journalism.

I could start an online paper about my local town and write purely objective stories. "Town council meeting today went as expected, complicated issue without clear solution continued unsolved". That probably won't get very many readers though. For one thing, relatively few people live in my town so few people will care. For another, the internet has conditioned people to get news for free, so the only way to monetize results in getting very little money (e.g. ads) from each reader, and, as just established, we'll have few readers because the town is small.

The revealed preference of news readers is to look at outrageous stuff and polemics. Get involved in a culture war about who did what why and what it means - that could attract millions of readers who you can slightly monetize to earn enough to get by. Do real journalism and few people will read it and they won't pay you won't for it... So...

I'm not saying this in a judgmental way. I don't pay for news either. I read what comes up on twitter, hackernews, linked to by friends, etc. I have an ad-blocker and I skip whatever content has a paywall that I can't bypass. I realize I'm part of the problem, but in a "tragedy of the commons" way. That is, the world would be better if everyone paid for and paid attention to primarily local and "hard-hitting" fair journalism, but there would be zero perceptible positive change if I switched to that model and perceptible negative costs for me for doing so.

Re:I Used to Write for Sports Illustrated. Now I Deliver Pac... by XorNot on Sunday May 02, 2021 @08:37PM (#27020421)
Journalism is not "reporting exactly what happened" - journalism is supposed to be investigation, and to draw conclusions.

Obviously there's bias, but that's the point: journalism has never and should not be "this person said 1 thing, someone else said a different thing". It's the path of "should you drink bleach? Scientists say no, this random nutbag says yes."

Re:I Used to Write for Sports Illustrated. Now I Deliver Pac... by MomoXenosaga on Monday May 03, 2021 @09:00AM (#27024476)
Donald Trump probably saved the New York Times...
Re:I Used to Write for Sports Illustrated. Now I Deliver Pac... by nmz on Sunday May 02, 2021 @04:11PM (#27018594)
Weird thing to say for a dying industry that's basically whoring itself for the highest bidder. You want objectivity and unbias? Those are not cheap, and until the whole journalism industry is fixed, you're going to keep getting what we have.
Re:I Used to Write for Sports Illustrated. Now I Deliver Pac... by chipotle_coyote on Sunday May 02, 2021 @07:50PM (#27020155)
"Journalists are pushing their own viewpoints and no longer being objective" is a complaint that's been with us since as long as there's been journalism, though. The Nixon administration famously toyed with the idea of creating their own news service because they believed the news organizations of the day were biased against them. Hell, the phrase "yellow journalism" goes back to the late 1800s and the often sensationalist New York World, a paper whose publisher declared it as "dedicated to the cause of the people rather than that of purse-potentates." That activist publisher was Joseph Pulitzer. (His battles with equally sensationalist rival publisher Hearst led to the "yellow journalism" charges.)