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Re:Chia surpasses 1 exabyte of hard drive space by greyface- on Wednesday April 28, 2021 @11:32PM (#26977134)
Chia pre-mined 6 years worth of block rewards. Proof-of-space may be the closest thing we have to a viable proof-of-work replacement but this instantiation of it feels like a get rich quick scheme for its founders.

Edit: My calculation was based on the initial reward schedule of 64 units per block, but when you take into account the fact that it ramps down to 4 units per block shortly thereafter, it's actually a premine of 21 years: https://www.coindesk.com/5-takeaways-from-chia-networks-new-...

Re:Chia surpasses 1 exabyte of hard drive space by vmception on Thursday April 29, 2021 @12:42AM (#26977545)
Literally every issued asset in history has a "premine", but somehow last decade's crypto aficionados find this controversial. It's so strange to even care and the market obviously does not care because there is like half a millenium of it never caring.

It's nice to see the crypto market maturing and ignoring these people so segregated from every other financial market because they never traded anything else. Low float, "pre-mined" assets are in vogue and represent a more compatible funding model for continued development and personal riches than whatever was happening just a few years ago, let alone through the last decade in crypto.

You should ignore the "egalitarian ideology", or completely take advantage of it by launching a Chia-clone without a premine while you simply provide all the storage space first and get the exact same "insta-mine" result while advertising it to people like you that actually care about no premines. A dozen ways to get the same result, its all marketing.

Re:Chia surpasses 1 exabyte of hard drive space by greyface- on Thursday April 29, 2021 @01:13AM (#26977696)
> simply provide all the storage space first and get the exact same "insta-mine" result while advertising it to people like you that actually care about no premines. A dozen ways to get the same result, its all marketing.

You only get the same result if you completely monopolize mining for the first twenty-one years. If you control 50% of mining, it would take 119 years to achieve the equivalent. My issue is not that there is a premine. It's the scale of it.

Re:Chia surpasses 1 exabyte of hard drive space by vmception on Thursday April 29, 2021 @05:36AM (#26979066)
Fair point, founder rewards are pretty common too.

Square Inc creates new shares for Jack Dorsey to sell like every week or so. Continual dilution that the market tolerated. Although fairly unique for the equities space, these are the case studies we are growing up with now.

Re:Chia surpasses 1 exabyte of hard drive space by celticninja on Sunday May 02, 2021 @05:05AM (#27013553)
Do you have a source for that? Doesn't seem like a legit practice on an ongoing basis.
Re:Chia surpasses 1 exabyte of hard drive space by stickac on Thursday April 29, 2021 @06:03AM (#26979255)
Bitcoin did not have a premine
Re:Chia surpasses 1 exabyte of hard drive space by ohgodplsno on Thursday April 29, 2021 @08:02AM (#26980068)
Right, it just had Satoshi and friends as basically the only members on the network and mined millions of coins when difficulty was basically non existent.
Re:Chia surpasses 1 exabyte of hard drive space by pablovidal85 on Thursday April 29, 2021 @08:29AM (#26980284)
Early adoption is not premining.
Re:Chia surpasses 1 exabyte of hard drive space by Yizahi on Friday April 30, 2021 @08:09AM (#26992375)
In law - not. In spirit - yes. Same like Apple and Google aren't monopolists on mobile because the definition requires a single corp to be a monopoly. But essentially they are monopoly.

Definition sometimes are lagging behind ever changing reality, same with "premine".

Re:Chia surpasses 1 exabyte of hard drive space by celticninja on Sunday May 02, 2021 @05:03AM (#27013546)
Bitcoin had no premine.
Re:Chia surpasses 1 exabyte of hard drive space by freddiecoleman on Thursday April 29, 2021 @07:00AM (#26979590)
Read the business whitepaper to see what they are doing with the pre-farm.

https://www.chia.net/2021/02/10/chia-businesss-whitepaper.ht...

You are free to agree or disagree with the plan, but need to read it before coming to any conclusions.

Re:Chia surpasses 1 exabyte of hard drive space by Salgat on Thursday April 29, 2021 @10:10PM (#26989167)
So the gist of the "strategic reserve" is that they will use pre-mined coins to bolster the company's value and enrich the shareholders.
Re:Chia surpasses 1 exabyte of hard drive space by celticninja on Sunday May 02, 2021 @05:02AM (#27013537)
Ore mine these days just means "we want to get rich off this first, and we don't really want to put any effort or resources into ensuring this. So we are going to allocate ourselves X% of total supply.

Satoshi had the decency to mine his coins alongside everyone else.

Re:Chia surpasses 1 exabyte of hard drive space by inter_netuser on Friday April 30, 2021 @08:41PM (#27001636)
Feel free to fork a version without a premine.

The code is licensed under a FOSS license, I believe.

Re:Chia surpasses 1 exabyte of hard drive space by rthomas6 on Thursday April 29, 2021 @08:18AM (#26980187)
What is wrong with proof of stake?
Re:Chia surpasses 1 exabyte of hard drive space by inter_netuser on Thursday April 29, 2021 @08:42AM (#26980410)
It’s plutocracy with emojis.

Other than that - absolutely nothing

Re:Chia surpasses 1 exabyte of hard drive space by rthomas6 on Thursday April 29, 2021 @09:03AM (#26980627)
I'm not trying to be obtuse, but why is authority tied to amount of coin owned any more plutocratic than authority tied to amount of computing resources used? Both cost money, and both scale power with amount of money sunk into it.
Re:Chia surpasses 1 exabyte of hard drive space by inter_netuser on Friday April 30, 2021 @08:16PM (#27001409)
Because PoW miners have very little authority tied to their computing resources.

Users have prevailed in Bitcoin forkwars over miners and many large exchanges and businesses.

Miners are really more similar to employees of the network, that order transaction in exchange for fees. They are not masters of the protocol, and cannot dictate its rules.

Proof of Work has a nuclear option (change of hashing algo) that would bankrupt the miners and render their farms useless. No such option exists in PoS, just political battles, as we've seen in practice.

In PoS users lost in political battles of EOS (collapsed and rewrote the network rules) and Steem (taken over by bad faith staker). Literally all PoS projects failed in some way until today, due to some centralization pressures it produces.

Re:Chia surpasses 1 exabyte of hard drive space by woah on Saturday May 01, 2021 @11:59AM (#27007315)
This is nonsensical. PoS users can change any parameters of the chain just as easily as PoW users can change the hashing algorithm. If all the PoS users switch to a version of the full node and or light client software that has the biggest holder’s balance reduced to zero, there is nothing anyone can do to stop them. It is the exact same thing as if PoW users switch to a full node software with a different hashing algo.
Re:Chia surpasses 1 exabyte of hard drive space by inter_netuser on Sunday May 02, 2021 @08:43PM (#27020447)
I think the most fundamental difference that "balanced reduced to zero, is not even up for discussion in Bitcoin.

Some Orwellian newspeak right there. "Reduced to zero". Just call it what it is: blacklists.

Blacklists = permissioned access.

Behave or we blacklist your coins. Welcome to Fiat 2.0

Re:Chia surpasses 1 exabyte of hard drive space by woah on Tuesday May 11, 2021 @02:37PM (#27121787)
Whatever. All Bitcoin users could also switch to a client that reduces someone's balance to zero.
Re:Chia surpasses 1 exabyte of hard drive space by ddrdrck_ on Saturday May 01, 2021 @03:27PM (#27009078)
This is not true. Cosmos network (PoS network based on Tendermint consensus) is running successfully since 2019 for example.
Re:Chia surpasses 1 exabyte of hard drive space by inter_netuser on Sunday May 02, 2021 @08:44PM (#27020454)
Never said they cannot operate.

It'll be just wildly more political than PoW chains where you can verify the heaviest chain objectively.

Re:Chia surpasses 1 exabyte of hard drive space by stirfish on Thursday April 29, 2021 @09:59AM (#26981246)
I don't think it is any more plutocratic. It's about the same.
Re:Chia surpasses 1 exabyte of hard drive space by meowface on Friday April 30, 2021 @10:34AM (#26993989)
What other options are possible for blockchain networks? All I've seen so far are plutocracy (PoW/PoS blockchains) and oligarchy (centralized blockchains).
Re:Chia surpasses 1 exabyte of hard drive space by inter_netuser on Friday April 30, 2021 @08:30PM (#27001545)
PoW is not a plutocracy because miners cannot dictate the protocol rules. Not even a 51% miner could do that, a common misconception. They at most can refuse to process transactions.

Users have prevailed agaist miners and large business in Bitcon forkwors, which failed to force their agenda on the users. This is at least some empirical proof in support that Bitcoin is not a plutocracy.

Miners have large farms that can be bankrupted by users simply deciding to change the hashing algo. No such option in PoS.

In PoS, largest wallets dictate changes. Liquidity begets more liquidity, aka the rich get richer, and such effect has a centralizing effect on PoS. All PoS project to date have failed.

Re:Chia surpasses 1 exabyte of hard drive space by mac01021 on Monday May 03, 2021 @08:09AM (#27024041)
I don't have a great grasp yet of how PoS and other non-PoW consensus protocols work.

But if I ever grok the building blocks fully enough, I'd like to see if I can devise a system based on "proof of receipt" in which the act of receiving X coins grants you the ability to "settle" a set of blocks totaling a*X worth of transactions (for some constant a).

Like in other blockchains, the node selected to settle a block of transactions gets to keep some or all of the transaction fees for that block. But instead of continually getting selected by virtue of continuing to hold a large amount of coin, you could only continue to be selected by continuing to receive coin (presumably in return for goods and services).

The transaction fees and the constant $a$ would have to bee chosen such that you couldn't turn a profit by sending lots of money to yourself. But I think that would allow for a fair system with a good incentive structure.

Re:Chia surpasses 1 exabyte of hard drive space by meowface on Monday May 03, 2021 @01:30PM (#27028024)
>The transaction fees and the constant $a$ would have to bee chosen such that you couldn't turn a profit by sending lots of money to yourself. But I think that would allow for a fair system with a good incentive structure.

What if the goal isn't to profit from block rewards but to attack the network, though? What if you pass stuff around over and over between tons of addresses you own? (Any person can create an unlimited number of addresses, pretty much instantly.)

Even if by the end the total transaction fees result in a heavy loss being incurred, the attacker would only do it if they think they can gain more from the network attack than they'd lose in fees.

I think a secure blockchain system can never make any kind of assumption that 1 address = 1 person/entity or 1 transaction >= 2 people/entities. I think depending on addresses or transactions in any way is probably a non-starter.

One of the key anti-Sybil features of Proof of Work, Proof of Space, and Proof of Stake is that it solely relies on a single scarce, unfakeable, totally fungible resource. The network cares about only one fungible variable: the total amount of computational power, or hard drive space, or funds in the network. That way, it makes no difference if the attacker has 1 address or 1 million addresses.

Re:Chia surpasses 1 exabyte of hard drive space by mac01021 on Tuesday May 04, 2021 @09:05AM (#27037124)
This is a very helpful comment, thank you!

I agree that any blockchain has to be resistant to Sybil attacks. And that may be an insurmountable obstacle for my idea but, so far, I haven't let that stop me from thinking about it.

There do seem to be some properties of PoW/PoS related to the level of iniquity in control of the blockchain and to their incentive structures, and I think it is worth casting a wide net in search of something better (even if it may not exist).

Re:Chia surpasses 1 exabyte of hard drive space by meowface on Tuesday May 04, 2021 @04:49PM (#27042702)
I agree. I don't know nearly enough about it all to be able to think of any, as well. I just know open, decentralized, trustless, permissionless, anonymous consensus in global peer-to-peer networks is a very difficult problem that people have been wracking their brains thinking about for decades. BitTorrent, Bitcoin, and Ethereum made some of the biggest breakthroughs, there.

It seems like everything might be a variation of one of two possible categories: economic game theory (Proof of Stake), or proof of committal of scarce, fungible physical resources. Everything else I can think of just seems like it'd be some form of centralization/oligarchy. But who knows?

(Proof of Stake is sometimes accused of being oligarchical, too, but I think it's still kind of the lesser of all evils, probably.)

Re:Chia surpasses 1 exabyte of hard drive space by mac01021 on Wednesday May 05, 2021 @10:52PM (#27058645)
BitTorrent?
Re:Chia surpasses 1 exabyte of hard drive space by kevincox on Thursday April 29, 2021 @10:03AM (#26981290)
The upside is that the wealthy have an incentive to keep the currency functional, otherwise their wealth is lost.

The downside is that "functional" isn't exactly a high bar. For example reducing block rewards to encourage deflation would disproportionately help the wealthy so they may push it even if it isn't ideal for the average person.

Re:Chia surpasses 1 exabyte of hard drive space by ashtonkem on Thursday April 29, 2021 @10:18AM (#26981483)
The same argument has been made about monarchies; no rational king would ruin the kingdom for his son. A quick perusal of the history books makes a mockery of that theory.

Turns out humans aren’t perfectly rational, and handing a huge amount of control to a tiny number of rich people is a fantastic way to discover that while any given rich person might be smart and what not, there’s a non trivial chance that their heir is an idiot and will ruin whatever they’re given. This is entertaining for personal fortunes, but not so funny when they control a currency.

Re:Chia surpasses 1 exabyte of hard drive space by inter_netuser on Friday April 30, 2021 @08:32PM (#27001565)
If the wealthy can rig the game in the favour and fleece the rest - they'll do it.

We've seen this throughout history.

That's what PoS will do to small holders. They will be nothing but tiny shareholders with no anti-dilutive protections and zero legal recourse.

I'd much rather deal with a centralized entity where at least I have a some body of law I can rely on.

Re:Chia surpasses 1 exabyte of hard drive space by inter_netuser on Friday April 30, 2021 @08:36PM (#27001603)
The fact the wealthy can change anything in a system - is already a red flag.

A system like that is definitely not decentralized.

Re:Chia surpasses 1 exabyte of hard drive space by VHRanger on Thursday April 29, 2021 @08:50AM (#26980500)
Proof of pyramid scheme, you mean?
Re:Chia surpasses 1 exabyte of hard drive space by reasons on Thursday April 29, 2021 @12:11AM (#26977365)
> ... it feels like a get rich quick scheme for its founders

Well, Bitcoin itself is a get rich quick scheme for its founders. So are most of its spinoffs.

Re:Chia surpasses 1 exabyte of hard drive space by eindiran on Thursday April 29, 2021 @12:15AM (#26977404)
> Bitcoin itself is a get rich quick scheme for its founders

Regardless of what you think about Bitcoin, this claim is completely ahistorical.

Re:Chia surpasses 1 exabyte of hard drive space by creato on Thursday April 29, 2021 @12:36AM (#26977513)
Satoshi (or one of his friends) owns 5% of all bitcoins that will ever exist.

I wouldn't call it a get rich quick scheme for its founder(s) because I doubt they could have known it would take off the way it did.

But, at this point, I don't know that intent matters. Imagine if Bitcoin really did become a dominant currency... one guy would own 5% of it, a deflationary currency! The "fiat billionaires" don't come anywhere close to that kind of concentration of wealth.

Re:Chia surpasses 1 exabyte of hard drive space by tnzm on Thursday April 29, 2021 @06:44AM (#26979498)
Doesn't he deserve it? If you were to launch a world-changing project at the cost of disappearing completely, wouldn't you want to reap some benefit from that project if it ever succeeds?
Re:Chia surpasses 1 exabyte of hard drive space by Orochikaku on Thursday April 29, 2021 @12:41AM (#26977539)
'Satoshi' as far as we know is a fiction, it could very well be a psuedonym for an entire team of unknown size
Re:Chia surpasses 1 exabyte of hard drive space by croon on Thursday April 29, 2021 @06:34AM (#26979433)
Doesn't matter, you can reduce it down to the wallet. (At least) someone has (or at least has at one point had) access to it.
Re:Chia surpasses 1 exabyte of hard drive space by tnzm on Thursday April 29, 2021 @06:42AM (#26979489)
So are VC unicorns.
Re:Chia surpasses 1 exabyte of hard drive space by dools on Thursday April 29, 2021 @12:43AM (#26977548)
My hunch is that Bitcoin is actually a project to promulgate Austro-libertarian economics and "Satoshi" is actually a bunch of people hired by stratospherically wealthy libertarians (like the guy that founded Renaissance who is tight with the Mercers). Call me crazy, but after hearing the correlation between people becoming interested in Bitcoin and Austro-libertarianism simultaneously I can't help but think it's a deliberate project.
Re:Chia surpasses 1 exabyte of hard drive space by tnzm on Thursday April 29, 2021 @06:40AM (#26979477)
The thing with ideologies (and other kinds of socioeconomical hypotheses) is that they're hyperstitional in nature - you can't prove they're realizable without at the same time deliberately trying to realize them, using people as fodder. (See, communism.) And at least one of the ideologies promulgated in meme-space must have some basis in potential reality (otherwise people wouldn't be at all prone to believing in world-changing ideas). Might be this one, might be not.