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Re:Has UML died without anyone noticing? by capableweb on Sunday April 25, 2021 @03:50PM (#26936003)
Some people see past tries at something as proof that something will never work. Others see past tries at someone having the right idea, but wrong implementation.

Imagine how many tried flying before we "invented flight", and how many said "oh how they won't learn from the past".

Re:Has UML died without anyone noticing? by mmcdermott on Sunday April 25, 2021 @04:30PM (#26936381)
I think that's a fair point. The way I see it, going from requirements (even visual ones) to working system would require strong AI, as any sufficiently powerful visual environment would wind up being Turing complete.

Which means that no code is either use case bounded or claiming something roughly on par with a break through. The first is common enough and where I imagine most low/no code offerings fall when the hype is stripped away. The hype seems to promise something on par with the second and I think that's where the dismissive attitude comes from.

Re:Has UML died without anyone noticing? by hctaw on Sunday April 25, 2021 @05:29PM (#26936868)
Functional and declarative programming are mostly specifying requirements directly. You don't need a AI to do it, in fact that would be the wrong tool (AI is good for fuzzy problems and inference - not following a spec).

An extreme example of this are logic and verification systems like prolog and TLA+.

There is a sweet spot of low code I haven't seen explored yet, which is a declarative system that is not Turing complete. That would be an interesting avenue to explore.

Re:Has UML died without anyone noticing? by mmcdermott on Sunday April 25, 2021 @05:46PM (#26937004)
Business requirements still have a measure of ambiguity and "do what I mean" to them. They are more formal than natural language, sure, but fall far short of the formalism of a declarative programming language. This is a big part of the business partnership underlying most Agile methodologies. If the formal spec could be handed off, then it would be and Waterfall would work better in enterprise settings. Instead, the team is constantly requiring feedback on the requirements.

So I guess I still see declarative languages as being part of the tech stack and something tantamount to AI being needed to handle all the "do what I mean" that accompanies business process documentation.

Re:Has UML died without anyone noticing? by hctaw on Sunday April 25, 2021 @05:56PM (#26937088)
I think honestly the problem is a lack of tech literacy. I've seen spec sheets that are glorified database and json schemas in a spreadsheet, put together by BAs and translated by hand.

It could be done directly if every BA had enough programming knowledge to put together schemas and run CLI tools to verify them.

Re:Has UML died without anyone noticing? by zozbot234 on Sunday April 25, 2021 @06:11PM (#26937205)
> had enough programming knowledge to put together schemas and run CLI tools to verify them.

That's quite a lot of programming knowledge. It makes some sense to decouple the business-oriented from the more technical roles - BA's trying their hand at coding is how you get mammoth Excel spreadsheets and other big-balls-of-mud.

Re:Has UML died without anyone noticing? by eptcyka on Sunday April 25, 2021 @07:33PM (#26937752)
I'd prefer not to.
Re:Has UML died without anyone noticing? by hintymad on Sunday April 25, 2021 @09:11PM (#26938299)
Not sure if prolog or formal methods are good examples here, as they are pretty hard programming language. Yes, they can be used to specify a system, but they also require human ingenuity, aka strong intelligence, to get right. Prolog may be easy for some people, but I did spend inordinate amount of time to understand how to use cut properly, and how to avoid infinite loops caused by ill-specified conditions in my mutually recursive definitions.

As for formal methods, oh, where shall I even begin? The amount of time to turn something intuitive into correct predicate logic can be prohibitive to most of professionals. HN used to feature Eric Hehner's Practical Theory of Programming. I actually read through his book. I could well spend hours specifying a searching condition even though I could solve the search problem in a few minutes. And have you checked out the model checking patterns (http://people.cs.ksu.edu/~dwyer/spec-patterns.ORIGINAL)? I honestly don't know how a mere mortal like me could spend my best days figuring how to correctly specify something as simple as an event will eventually have between an event Q and an event P. Just for fun, the CTL specification is as follows:

``` G(Q -> !E[!R U (!P & !R & EX(P & E[!R U (!P & !R & EX(P & E[!R U (!P & !R & EX(P & !R & EF(R)))]))]))]) ```

As I said, formally specifying a system, no matter what tools one uses, is essential complexity.

Re:Has UML died without anyone noticing? by pfdietz on Monday April 26, 2021 @06:48AM (#26941174)
I want to see formal methods used more in lieu of writing standards documents. If you go read a standards document, say for 5G wireless, you'll find it's largely formal specification awkwardly stated in English and ad hoc diagrams. It would be better to just write out something formal (with textual annotations as a fallback) and have a way to translate that to readable language.
Re:Has UML died without anyone noticing? by rurp on Sunday April 25, 2021 @05:35PM (#26936912)
True, but on the flip side imagine how many people tried transmuting lead into gold, thinking the previous attempts simply used the wrong approach.
Re:Has UML died without anyone noticing? by zepto on Sunday April 25, 2021 @05:42PM (#26936962)
They were right. The previous attempts did in fact use the wrong approach, and people have now successfully turned lead into gold. The only problem is that it’s too expensive to be worth doing.
Re:Has UML died without anyone noticing? by rurp on Tuesday April 27, 2021 @12:06AM (#26951895)
I don't agree. If you could ask a prime Newton if he'd be satisfied converting lead into gold in a cost prohibitive manner I would bet any amount of money his answer would be a quick "no". The goal of alchemy was to convert lead into gold in a way that made the discoverer rich, it's just not proper to say the second part explicitly, but I believe most people understand it that way.
Re:Has UML died without anyone noticing? by zepto on Sunday May 02, 2021 @03:19PM (#27018070)
> The goal of alchemy was to convert lead into gold in a way that made the discoverer rich

That definitely needs a citation. The Wikipedia page mentions no such motivation, and describes Alchemy as a proto-scientific endeavor aimed at understanding the natural world.

Re:Has UML died without anyone noticing? by zinok on Monday April 26, 2021 @06:09AM (#26940981)
However, the analogy is still accurate, because the right approach involved several steps which no one thought were conceivably part of the solution: "understand how forces work at macro scales", "understand electricity", "understand magnetism", "develop a mathematical framework for summing tiny localized effects over large and irregular shapes", "develop a mathematical framework for understanding how continuous distributions evolve based on simple rules", "learn to look accurately at extremely small things", "learn to distinguish between approximate and exact numerical relationships", "develop a mathematical framework for understanding the large-scale interaction of huge numbers of tiny components", and so on.

If you went back in time to an age where people were working hard on changing lead into gold and your mission was to help them succeed as soon as possible, your best bet would probably be something like teaching them the decimal place value system, or how to express algebraic problems as geometric ones. But if you also told people that this knowledge was the key to solving the two problems they were working on, "how to make very pure versions of a substance", and "how to understand what makes specific types of matter different" you would reasonably have been regarded as deluded.

Re:Has UML died without anyone noticing? by zepto on Monday April 26, 2021 @04:11PM (#26947433)
> However, the analogy is still accurate, because the right approach involved several steps which no one thought were conceivably part of the solution

I don’t see how that follows. It’s just a truism that nobody figured out how to do it until someone finally did. The fact that the path wasn’t obvious at various points in the past seems irrelevant.

> But if you also told people that this knowledge was the key to solving the two problems they were working on, "how to make very pure versions of a substance", and "how to understand what makes specific types of matter different" you would reasonably have been regarded as deluded.

If they were listening to you at all, it’s not at all obvious why this part would sound deluded.

How is it any more exotic than any of the failed alchemies?

As far as I can see they were all quite abstract.

This one that happens to be correct, no less so.

Re:Has UML died without anyone noticing? by zinok on Tuesday April 27, 2021 @05:45AM (#26953879)
'It' (most of 17th, 18th and 19th and some early 20th century mathematics, chemistry and physics) is clearly a lot more abstract than the failed alchemies.

The point is that 'just keep trying' would not have been a good strategy.

Re:Has UML died without anyone noticing? by zepto on Tuesday April 27, 2021 @11:59AM (#26957703)
'just keep trying' is a straw man that nobody has mentioned until just now.

Yes, it’s possible that there are some concepts we have yet to think of.

See: https://numinous.productions/ttft/

The explanation of how hard it would be to come up with Arabic numerals if you didn’t already have them covers this.

However the point here is that we can learn from this, and we now know a lot more about how to do hard things.

‘It’s too hard and we should give up’ (the countervailing straw man) is even less supported by history than ‘keep trying’.

Re:Has UML died without anyone noticing? by sharpneli on Sunday April 25, 2021 @05:49PM (#26937031)
To be honest we actually figured even this one out.

It just requires a particle accelerator and the amounts are so tiny that it’s ridiculously expensive. But hey, we can still do it!

Re:Has UML died without anyone noticing? by karmasimida on Sunday April 25, 2021 @04:08PM (#26936169)
Either outcome is possible.

Many alchemists tried to turn copper to gold as well. They might as well think that their predecessors are just unlucky by using the wrong implementation.

Re:Has UML died without anyone noticing? by int_19h on Sunday April 25, 2021 @04:16PM (#26936259)
And they were correct: we do know how to turn copper to gold now; it's just prohibitively expensive.
Re:Has UML died without anyone noticing? by ScalaFan on Sunday April 25, 2021 @06:09PM (#26937192)
It would have been sad if we had given up on AI/ML ideas due to the failure of AI back in the 80s/early 90s. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifth_generation_computer