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Re:Apple is sued for telling you that you're “buying” movies by SCHiM on Friday April 23, 2021 @06:51AM (#26913314)
Do you think it'd be a good idea to force companies to open source abandonware? We could claw back space from copyright laws, and force companies to remove DRM schemes, open source DRM-ed copyright, servers and any/all assets required to run "the store" locally.

This is analogous to right to repair, DRM "breaking" your property should be banned.

Re:Apple is sued for telling you that you're “buying” movies by lrvick on Friday April 23, 2021 @07:07AM (#26913424)
DMCA is no longer enforced on media where the device needed to play it is no longer sold.

You can go get almost any Super Nintendo ROM on archive.org right now, legally.

I hope to see this foothold extended.

Re:Apple is sued for telling you that you're “buying” movies by asdfasgasdgasdg on Friday April 23, 2021 @08:19AM (#26913940)
Do you have chapter and verse for this? It doesn't sound right to me but I don't know for sure.
Re:Apple is sued for telling you that you're “buying” movies by lrvick on Friday April 23, 2021 @08:38AM (#26914080)
https://www.copyright.gov/1201/docs/librarian_statement_01.h...

There is an explicit exemption for:

"Computer programs and video games distributed in formats that have become obsolete and which require the original media or hardware as a condition of access."

AKA old console roms. https://archive.org has piles now unchallenged for years as a result.

Re:Apple is sued for telling you that you're “buying” movies by saurik on Friday April 23, 2021 @08:49AM (#26914194)
I haven't looked into the source of this specific exemption yet, but if it is the mechanism I think it is -- a ruling on an exemption petition -- it is important to understand that this exempts a user from circumventing the protection mechanism but it does not provide any kind of exemption for "trafficking" in tools that help people actually perform the circumvention... which frankly makes a lot of these exemptions feel a bit academic :(.
Re:Apple is sued for telling you that you're “buying” movies by lrvick on Friday April 23, 2021 @07:16PM (#26920374)
Maybe, but archive.org has listed this exemption on their website for years as their rationale for being able to distribute ROMs for dead consoles and it has totally remained unchallenged AFAICT.

Copyright enforcement seems often "use it or lose it"

SPAM didn't act fast enough to protect their brand, and once it became commonplace as a term for internet garbage it was considered too late to enforce.

Unless someone like Nintendo makes a new Super Nintendo that can play original cartridges, I don't expect they would do well in court trying to enforce given the exemption and after doing nothing for so long at this point.

I study IP law academically but IANAL. With that said, I think we are honestly at a free for all at this point, and the more people that host ROMs openly, the worse the case against them gets.

Re:Apple is sued for telling you that you're “buying” movies by ac29 on Friday April 23, 2021 @01:36PM (#26917126)
It doesn't say anywhere that you can also distribute copies of the copyrighted work, though.
Re:Apple is sued for telling you that you're “buying” movies by lrvick on Friday April 23, 2021 @07:19PM (#26920407)
But it does imply DMCA can't be used to go after people that do.

DMCA is the only tool people that wish to stop distribution of media have, so it might as well be a blanket statement of legal distribution IMO, and archive.org certainly interprets it this way.

Re:Apple is sued for telling you that you're “buying” movies by redwall_hp on Friday April 23, 2021 @10:34AM (#26915166)
The trouble is that the company may not own the rights to everything involved. This has been an issue for some companies that have tried to open up old games. Sometimes you have libraries, like Bink video (infamously) that are licensed and are not compatible with open licenses. There might be issues with the game engines or with assets. e.g. it's not uncommon to have music licensed for use in the game, but the rights don't include redistributing in other forms or producing something like a soundtrack. Stock music often has licenses that allow use in something like a game or movie, but disallow redistributing the file. (That was a sticking point for Bioshock Infinite: they produced their own new arrangements of some popular songs, but didn't have more costly licensing necessary to release a soundtrack.)
Re:Apple is sued for telling you that you're “buying” movies by LocalH on Friday April 23, 2021 @11:32AM (#26915765)
Opensourcing the code is different from including music or graphical assets that are licensed. The Bink issue is legitimate, yes, but there's nothing stopping them from stripping copyrighted assets from the game prior to opensourcing. Harmonix's source for Guitar Hero II on PS2 would be nice to see in such a form, for example (and their engine is pretty much entirely bespoke, so no real worries about license incompatibility). Along with the necessary tools to build our own assets (that we can't already do with homebrew tools).
Re:Apple is sued for telling you that you're “buying” movies by dataflow on Friday April 23, 2021 @06:54AM (#26913330)
How would you define abandonware?
Re:Apple is sued for telling you that you're “buying” movies by iso1631 on Friday April 23, 2021 @07:19AM (#26913502)
I would require copyright holders to renew their copyright. 5 years for free, then $1 for the 6th year, $2 for the 7th, $4 for the 8th, $8 for the 9th, $1m for the 25th, etc.
Re:Apple is sued for telling you that you're “buying” movies by ziml77 on Friday April 23, 2021 @07:24AM (#26913534)
Not every copyright holder is a massive corporation. Artists produce many pieces per year. That would cost them a lot to keep copyrights.
Re:Apple is sued for telling you that you're “buying” movies by TeMPOraL on Friday April 23, 2021 @08:13AM (#26913895)
Not for the duration that matters. 5 years for free is plenty of time to make reasonable income on your creations; after that, you're just seeking rent from society.

Sure, boost that to 10 or even 20 years if needed[0]. But from then on extension costs should grow exponential - otherwise we risk locking down work for duration longer than a human lifetime. Like it already happens with Disney.

--

[0] - 20 years may have been appropriate in mid-20th century, but I'd argue it isn't now. Cultural creation accelerates exponentially, but long copyrights prevent the ability to improve on prior art to accelerate in lock step.

Re:Apple is sued for telling you that you're “buying” movies by Silhouette on Friday April 23, 2021 @10:48AM (#26915278)
5 years for free is plenty of time to make reasonable income on your creations; after that, you're just seeking rent from society.

I strongly dispute this statement, unless your definition of reasonable income does not include at least making back the money you spent on producing the content in the first place. You're ignoring all the small creators who produce new material for niche markets, possibly as a side income rather than their main jobs, and rely on the long tail of sales of that original work to make it financially worthwhile. Not every copyright holder is a Hollywood movie studio, big name record label or international book publisher you've heard of.

Your longer periods might be more realistic in those cases, and even 10 years might not be enough to break even.

Re:Apple is sued for telling you that you're “buying” movies by danbolt on Friday April 23, 2021 @02:07PM (#26917443)
Do you think there'd be a good time to draw a line? I can't really see the need for 25+ without a fee.
Re:Apple is sued for telling you that you're “buying” movies by Silhouette on Friday April 23, 2021 @04:38PM (#26918951)
Do you think there'd be a good time to draw a line?

I suppose that's the $LARGE_AMOUNT question, isn't it?

As a personal opinion, I think copyright is OK as an economic incentive unless and until we find something that works better, but the protection should be determined by what makes it economically reasonable for people to create and share useful works, taking into account all the circumstances and over the long term. There is clearly no single duration of protection that is even close to that benchmark for all situations, because something like a blockbuster movie or smash hit video game might make several times its production costs back within months of initial distribution and that might be a large majority of the revenue it will ever make, while those small, niche-content creators I talked about before might not break even for a decade or two. As ever with debates about alternatives to current copyright, things start to get sticky when you try to figure out a reasonable way to estimate the effects of any proposed change without actually making it and then waiting a decade or three to see what happens.

I like the idea of shortening copyright protection but at the same time considering other rights to protect things of value that are, sometimes incidentally, protected by copyright today. For example, I have no problem with the requirements that exist in some places to credit the creators of a work, as an entirely separate matter from copyright. I think there is also a lot of room to explore safeguards against intruding on a larger creative effort too soon, such as where an author has put considerable effort into world-building and is continuing to produce successful new works set in that world, in which case allowing poor-quality fan fiction to flood the market as soon as the copyright on the first work in that world expires could sharply devalue the overall creative effort for the author and so result in fewer or lower quality works subsequently being produced and shared by that author, which is a harm to society as well.

In short, I don't think you can reasonably draw a single line with anything resembling our current copyright system. I think there should probably be several lines, in each of several colours, and some of them should be circles and triangles. But then given how difficult enforcement often is already and how widespread misunderstandings about the existing law are, that might not be practical either. Economics and intangible goods are a tough combination.

Re:Apple is sued for telling you that you're “buying” movies by ryukafalz on Friday April 23, 2021 @08:10AM (#26913877)
It doesn't necessarily benefit massive corporations more than individual artists, because those massive corporations probably also hold copyright over a lot of works; it'd cost them huge amounts of money to renew them all.

I think GP's scheme isn't awful honestly; it would have the effect of drastically lowering the practical length of copyright for most works while providing artists with a way to maintain copyright over works that are actually highly successful. (A per-year doubling might be a bit much but I think it's on the right track.)

If the practical effect was that we mostly got back to the original copyright term we had in the US (14 years with the possibility to extend that once), I'd be pretty happy. Maybe start the fees after the 14th year.

Re:Apple is sued for telling you that you're “buying” movies by ghaff on Friday April 23, 2021 @08:02AM (#26913820)
It's mostly representatives of individual creators who oppose orphan works legislation. Disney probably isn't going to forget (or worry about the expense) to renew the copyright on Frozen. But an individual author/photographer/etc. may well forget. And in the photographer case, does that mean they're going to have to spend money every year to renew the copyright on each individual photograph that want to continue to protect?
Re:Apple is sued for telling you that you're “buying” movies by ticviking on Friday April 23, 2021 @09:11AM (#26914390)
We could allow natural persons to hold copyright for their natural life. Their heirs, if natural persons could get a 18 year free extension (allowing any minor child of a creator to benefit from their parents IP to pay for their upbringing)

Corporations can start paying that escalating price right away.

(Edit: misread GP and removed a paragraph)

Re:Apple is sued for telling you that you're “buying” movies by finnthehuman on Friday April 23, 2021 @10:01AM (#26914866)
I think that's the point, to send works nobody is making money with to the public domain faster. Rather than the politically untenable idea of shortening the ever-expanding length of copyright.
Re:Apple is sued for telling you that you're “buying” movies by mLuby on Friday April 23, 2021 @10:26AM (#26915090)
Right, this is the problem: how to protect normal people without giving large companies more power? And how to do it when the companies are the ones in the room with lawmakers?

Non-transferable copyright/patents?

Re:Apple is sued for telling you that you're “buying” movies by Qwertious on Friday April 23, 2021 @02:03PM (#26917409)
I don't think that's the right set of incentives:

1. Different industries have different paces; it might take 25 years for any NASA software to be fully developed in the first place, whereas if you haven't made back your money on your singleplayer videogame after 10 years, you probably won't ever make it back. Point is, there is no flat duration that is fair to every work out there. 2. almost by definition, the stuff we care about is more profitable and will therefore be kept under copyright longer. 3. I wonder whether copyright expiration is actually helpful for software, when it doesn't provide you with source code. I'd like to see some mechanism that incentivizes the IP owner to publish source code after their copyright expires - perhaps by offering a conditional extension to the copyright duration in exchange for putting the source code in escrow?

Really, I don't think software's IP type should be "copyright" in the first place. It doesn't make sense to cut and paste a binary like you would with a book's text.

Re:Apple is sued for telling you that you're “buying” movies by iso1631 on Saturday April 24, 2021 @06:22AM (#26923790)
> it might take 25 years for any NASA software to be fully developed in the first place

NASA is a government agency, the work should be in the public domain

Re:Apple is sued for telling you that you're “buying” movies by Qwertious on Sunday April 25, 2021 @11:10PM (#26938866)
s/NASA/aerospace/
Re:Apple is sued for telling you that you're “buying” movies by passivate on Friday April 23, 2021 @05:27PM (#26919389)
Does the clock reset if you update the original work? With rolling releases, who determines when the clock officially starts? Also you'd have to account for industries where copyright/trademark/patents could overlap on products. While a nice idea, I imagine it would become a bureaucratic nightmare to implement as a law. But nevertheless, we need to think about new ways to fix the current broken system.
Re:Apple is sued for telling you that you're “buying” movies by iso1631 on Saturday April 24, 2021 @06:24AM (#26923795)
Sure, the new version (where Greedo shoots at Han) would reset the clock, but the original work (Where only Han shoots) still remains the same, and to be renewed would cost Disney $500b to renew it this year.
Re:Apple is sued for telling you that you're “buying” movies by jerry1979 on Friday April 23, 2021 @08:48AM (#26914184)
It looks like abandonware has an evolving legal status and relates to "orphaned" works in the US.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abandonware

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orphan_works_in_the_United_Sta...

Re:Apple is sued for telling you that you're “buying” movies by SCHiM on Friday April 23, 2021 @06:56AM (#26913347)
I don't think I have the full definition.

But if you think about online games, it becomes abandonware if you can no longer log into the game servers?

Or if your product is dependent on DRM, then is becomes abandonware when the DRM servers shut down.

I think different classes of media will require different definitions of when they become abandonware, but I think we'll mostly know it when we see it.

Re:Apple is sued for telling you that you're “buying” movies by dataflow on Friday April 23, 2021 @07:27AM (#26913552)
Your definitions are better than what I was imagining, but I think they might still have rather significant edge cases & loopholes in reality. To give some examples off the top of my head: What if (say) access ends up varying across jurisdictions? What if they keep the servers running, but start charging for them? What if the company wants to sell to someone in another jurisdiction? etc.