> This is thinly veiled and potentially dangerous bullying.

Which itself could be the basis of a follow up research paper. The first one was about surreptitiously slipping vulnerabilities into the kernel code.

There's nothing surreptitious about their current behavior. They're now known bad actors attempting to get patches approved. First nonchalantly, and after getting called out and rejected they framed it as an attempt at bullying by the maintainers.

If patches end up getting approved, everything about the situation is ripe for another paper. The initial rejection, attempting to frame it as bullying by the maintainers (which ironically, is thinly veiled bullying itself), impact of public pressure (which currently seems to be in the maintainers' favor, but the public is fickle and could turn on a dime).

Hell, even if the attempt isn't successful you could probably turn it into another paper anyway. Wouldn't be as splashy, but would still be an interesting meta-analysis of techniques bad actors can use to exploit the human nature of the open source process.

Yep, while the downside is that it wastes maintainers’ time and they are rightfully annoyed, I find the overall topic fascinating not repulsive. This is a real world red team pen test on one of the highest profile software projects. There is a lot to learn here all around! Hope the UMN people didn't burn goodwill by being too annoying, though. Sounds like they may not be the best red team after all...

A good red team pentest would have been to just stop after the first round of patches, not to try again and then cry foul when they get rightfully rejected. Unless, of course, social denunciation is part of the attack- and yes, it's admittedly a pretty good sidechannel- but that's a rather grisly social engineering attack, wouldn't you agree?

A real world red team?

Wouldn't the correct term for that be: malicious threat actor?

Red team penetration testing doesn't involve the element of surprise, and is pre-arranged.

Intentionally wasting peoples time, and then going further to claim you weren't, is a malicious act as it intends to do harm.

I agree though, it's fascinating but only in the true crime sense.

Totally agree. It is a threat, not pen testing. Pen testing would stop when it was obvious they would or had succeeded and notify the project so they could remedy the process and prevent it in the future. Reverting to name calling and outright manipulative behavior is immature and counterproductive in any case except where the action is malicious.

I agree. If it quacks like a duck and waddles like a duck, then it is a duck. Anyone secretly introducing exploitable bugs in a project is a malicious threat actor. It doesn't matter if it is a "respectable" university or a teenager, it matters what they _do_.

They did not secretly introduce exploitable bugs:

Once any maintainer of the community responds to the email,indicating “looks good”,we immediately point out the introduced bug and request them to not go ahead to apply the patch. At the same time, we point out the correct fixing of the bug and provide our proper patch. In all the three cases, maintainers explicitly acknowledged and confirmed to not move forward with the incorrect patches. This way, we ensure that the incorrect patches will not be adopted or committed into the Git tree of Linux.

https://www-users.cs.umn.edu/~kjlu/papers/clarifications-hc....

> If it quacks like a duck and waddles like a duck, then it is a duck.

A lot of horrible things have happened on the Internet by following that philosophy. I think it's imperative to learn the rigorous facts and different interpretations of them, or we will continue to great harm and be easily manipulated.

> Which itself could be the basis of a follow up research paper.

Seems more like low grade journalism to me.

But the first paper is a Software Engineering paper (social-exploit-vector vulnerability research), while the hypothetical second paper would be a Sociology paper about the culture of FOSS. Kind of out-of-discipline for the people who were writing the first paper.

There's certainly a sociology aspect to the whole thing, but the hypothetical second paper is just as much social-exploit-vector vulnerability research as the first one. The only change being the state of the actor involved.

The existing paper researched the feasibility of unknown actors to introduce vulnerable code. The hypothetical second paper has the same basis, but is from the vantage point of a known bad actor.

Reading through the mailing list (as best I can), the maintainer's response to the latest buggy patches seemed pretty civil[1] in general, and even more so considering the prior behavior. And the submitter's response to that (quoted here[2]) went to the extreme end of defensiveness. Instead of addressing or acknowledging anything in the maintainer's message, the submitter:

- Rejected the concerns of the maintainer as "wild accusations bordering on slander"

- Stating their naivety of the kernel code, establishing themselves as a newbie

- Called out the unfriendliness of the maintainers to newbies and non-expects

- Accused the maintainer of having preconceived biases

An empathetic reading of their response is that they really are a newbie trying to be helpful and got defensive after feeling attacked. But a cynical reading of their response is that they're attempting to exploiting high-visibility social issues to pressure or coerce the maintainers into accepting patches from a known bad actor.

The cynical interpretation is as much social-exploit-vector vulnerability research as what they did before. Considering how they deflected on the maintainer's concerns stemming from their prior behavior and immediately pulled a whole bunch of hot-button social issues into the conversation at the same time, the cynical interpretation seems at least plausible.

[1] https://lore.kernel.org/linux-nfs/YH5%[email protected]...

[2] https://lore.kernel.org/linux-nfs/YH%2FfM%2FTsbmcZzwnX@kroah...

And they tried to blow the "preconceived biases" dog whistle. I read that as a threat.

Context for those curious: https://lore.kernel.org/linux-nfs/YH%2FfM%2FTsbmcZzwnX@kroah...

WTF. I didn't have strong feelings about that until reading this thread. Nothing like doubling down on the assholishness after getting caught, Aditya.

Intimidating new people is the same line that was lobbed at Linus to neuter his public persona. It would not surprise me if opportunists utilize this kind of language more frequently in the future.

It isn't even bullying. It is just dumb?

Fortunately, the episode also suggests that the kernel-development immune-system is fully-operational.

Not sure. From what I read they've successfully introduced a vulnerability in their first attempt. Would anyone have noticed if they didn't call more attention to their activities?

Can you point to this please? From my reading, it appears that their earlier patches were merged, but there is no mention of them being actual vulnerabilities. The lkml thread does mention they want to revert these patches, just in case.

From LKML

"A lot of these have already reached the stable trees. I can send you revert patches for stable by the end of today (if your scripts have not already done it)."

https://lore.kernel.org/linux-nfs/YH%[email protected]...

It's not saying that those are introduced bugs; IMHO they're just proactively reverting all commits from these people.

> > > They introduce kernel bugs on purpose. Yesterday, I took a look on 4 > > > accepted patches from Aditya and 3 of them added various severity security > > > "holes".

It looks like actual security vulnerabilities were successfully added to the stable branch based on that comment.

Yes because the UMN guys have made their intent clear, and even went on to defend their actions. They should have apologised and asked for reverting their patches.

Which kind of sucks for everyone else at UMN, including people who are submitting actual security fixes...

There are some activities that should be "intimidating to newbies" though, shouldn't there? I can think of a lot of specific examples, but in general, anything where significant preparation is helpful in avoiding expensive (or dangerous) accidents. Or where lack of preparation (or intentional "mistakes" like in this case) would shift the burden of work unfairly onto someone else. Also, a "newbie" in the context of Linux system programming would still imply reasonable experience and skill in writing code, and in checking and testing your work.

I'm gonna go against the grain here and say I don't think this is a continuation of the original research. It'd be a strange change in methodology. The first paper used temporary email addresses, why switch to a single real one? The first paper alerted maintainers as soon as patches were approved, why switch to allowing them to make it through to stable? The first paper focused on a few subtle changes, why switch to random scattershot patches? Sure, this person's advisor is listed as a co-author of the first paper, but that really doesn't imply the level of coordination that people are assuming here.

It doesn't really matter that he/they changed MO, because they've already shown to be untrustworthy. You can only get the benefit of the doubt once.

I'm not saying people or institutions cant change. But the burden of proof is on them now to show that they did. A good first step would be to acknowledge that there IS a good reason for doubt, and certainly not whine about 'preconceived bias'.

They had already done it once without asking for consent. At least in my eye, that makes them—everyone in the team—lose their credibility. Notifying the kernel maintainers afterwards is irrelevant.

It is not the job of the kernel maintainers to justify the teams new nonsense patches. If the team has stopped being bullshit, they should defend the merit of their own patches. They have failed to do so, and instead tried to deflect with recriminations, and now they are banned.

At this point how do you even make the difference between their genuine behavior and the behavior that is part of the research?

I would say that, from the point of view of the kernel maintainers, that question is irrelevant, as they never agreed to taking part in any research so. Therefore, from their perspective, all the behaviour is genuinely malevolent regardless of the individual intentions of each UMN researcher.

This. This research says something about Minnesota's ethics approval process.

I'm surprised it passed their IRB. Any research has to go through them, even if it's just for the IRB to confirm with "No this does not require a full review". Either the researchers here framed it in a way that there was no damage being done, or they relied on their IRB's lack of technical understanding to realize what was going on.

According to one of the researchers who co-signed a letter of concern over the issue, the Minnesota group also only received IRB approval retroactively, after said letter of concern [1].

[1] https://twitter.com/SarahJamieLewis/status/13848713855379087...

In the paper they state that they received an exemption from the IRB.

I'd love to see what they submitted to their IRB to get the determination of no human subjects:

It had a high human component because it was humans making decisions in this process. In particular, there was the potential to cause maintainers personal embarrassment or professional censure by letting through a bugged patch. If the researchers even considered this possibility, I doubt the IRB would have approved this experimental protocol if laid out in those terms.

https://research.umn.edu/units/irb/how-submit/new-study , find the document that points to "determining that it's not human research", leads you to https://drive.google.com/file/d/0Bw4LRE9kGb69Mm5TbldxSVkwTms...

The only relevant question is: "Will the investigator use ... information ... obtained through ... manipulations of those individuals or their environment for research purposes?"

which could be idly thought of as "I'm just sending an email, what's wrong with that? That's not manipulating their environment".

But I feel they're wrong.

https://grants.nih.gov/policy/humansubjects/hs-decision.htm would seem to agree that it's non-exempt (i.e. potentially problematic) human research if "there will be an interaction with subjects for the collection of ... data (including ... observation of behaviour)" and there's not a well-worn path (survey/public observation only/academic setting/subject agrees to study) with additional criteria.

Agreed: sending an email is certainly manipulating their environment when the action taken (or not taken) as a result has the potential for harm. Imagine an extreme example of an email death-threat: That is an undeniable harm, meaning email has such potential, so the IRB should have conducted a more thorough review.

Besides, all we have to do is look at the outcome: Outrage on the part of the organization targeted, and a ban by that organization that will limit the researcher's institution from conducting certain types of research.

If this human-level harm was the actual outcome means the experiment was a de fact experiment including human subjects.

I have to admit, I can completely understand how submitting source code patches to the linux kernel doesn't sound like human testing to the layman.

Not to excuse them at all, I think the results are entirely appropriate. What they're seeing is the immune system doing its job. Going easy on them just because they're a university would skew the results of the research, and we wouldn't want that.

Agreed: I can understand how the IRB overlooked this. The researchers don't get a pass though. And considering the actual harm done, the researchers could not have presented an appropriate explanation to their IRB.

This research is not exempt.

One of the important rules you must agree to is that you cannot deceive anyone in any way, no matter how small, if you are going to claim that you are doing exempt research.

These researchers violated the rules of their IRB. Someone should contact their IRB and tell them.

This was (1) research with human subjects (2) where the human subjects were deceived, and (3) there was no informed consent!

If the IRB approved this as exempt and they had an accurate understanding of the experiment, it makes me question the IRB itself. Whether the researchers were dishonest with the IRB or the IRB approved this as exempt, it's outrageous.

Just so you know, you appear to have been shadowbanned. I'm not sure why, probably for having a new account and getting quickly downvoted in this thread. (Admittedly you come across slightly strong, but... not outside of what I think is reasonable, so I dunno what's going on.)

I do recommend participating more in other threads and a little less in this thread, where you're repeating pretty much the same point over and over.

lol it didn't. looks like some spots are opening up at UMN's IRB. :)

Yeah, I don't think they can claim that human subjects weren't part of this when there is outrage on the part of the humans working at the targeted organization and a ban on the researchers' institution from doing any research in this area.

Yes!! Minnesota sota caballo rey. Spanish cards dude

It does prevent anyone with a umn.edu email address, be it a student or professor, of submitting patches of _any kind,_ even if they're not part of research at all. A professor might genuinely just find a bug in the Linux kernel running on their machines, fix it, and be unable to submit it.

To be clear, I don't think what the kernel maintainers did is wrong; it's just sad that all past and future potentially genuine contributions to the kernel from the university have been caught in the crossfire.

I looked into it (https://old.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/mvd6zv/greg_khs_resp...). People from the University of Minnesota has 280 commits to the Linux kernel. Of those, 232 are from the three people directly implicated in this attack (that is, Aditya Pakki and the two authors of the paper), and the remaining 28 commits is from one individual who might not be directly involved.

He writes "We are not experts in the linux kernel..." after pushing so many changes since 2018. I am left scratching my head.

And what about the other 20 commits? (not that it is so important, but sometimes a missing detail can be annoying)

Haha

The professor, or any students, can just use a non edu email address, right? It really doesn't seem like a big deal to me. It's not like they can personally ban anyone who's been to that campus, just the edu email address.

However, if you use a personal email, you can’t hide behind “I’m just doing my research”.

no, that would get them around an automatic filter, but the ban was on people from the university, not just people using uni email addresses.

I'm not sure how the law works in such cases, but surely the IRB would eventually have to realize that an explicit denouncement by the victims means that the "research" cannot go ahead

For one, it’s a way of punishing the university.

Eg - If you want to do kernel related research, don’t go to the university of Minnesota.

Which is completely fine, IMO, because,as pointed out already, the university's IRB has utterly failed here. There is no way how this sort of "research" could have passed an ethics review.

- Human subjects - Intentionally misleading/misrepresenting things, potential for a lot of damage, given how widespread Linux is - No informed consent at all!

Sorry but one cannot use unsuspecting people as guinea pigs for research, even if it is someone from a reputable institution.

I think in explicitly stating that no on from the university is allowed to submit patches includes disallowing them from submitting using personal/spoof addresses.

Sure they can only automatically ban the .edu address, but it would be pretty meaningless to just ban the university email host, but be ok with the same people submitting patches from personal accounts.

I would also explicitly ban every person involved with this "research" and add their names to a hypothetical ban list.

As a Minnesota U employee/student you cannot submit officially from campus or using the minn. u domain.

As Joe Blow at home who happens to go to school or work there you could submit even if you were part of the research team. Because you are not representing the university. The university is banned.

It would be hard to show this wasn’t genuine behaviour but a malicious attempt to infect the Linux kernel. That still doesn’t give them a pass though. Academia is full of copycat “scholars”. Kernel maintainers would end up wasting significant chunks of their time fending off this type of “research”.

The kernel maintainers don't need to show or prove anything, or owe anyone an explanation. The University's staff/students are banned, and their work will be undone within a few days.

The reputational damage will be lasting, both for the researchers, and for UMN.

One could probably do a paper about evil universities doing stupid things.. anyway evil actions are evil regardless of the context, research 100-yrs ago was intentionally evil without being questioned, today ethics should filter what research should be done or not

>then tried to push the blame on the kernel maintainers for being "intimidating to newbies".

As soon as I read that all sympathy for this clown was out the window. He knows exactly what he's doing.

Why not just call it what it is: fraud. They tried to deceive the maintainers into incorporating buggy code under false pretenses. They lied (yes, let's use that word) about it, then doubled down about the lie when caught.

This looks a very cynical attempt to leverage PC language to manipulate people. Basically a social engineering attack. They surely will try to present it as pentest, but IMHO it should be treated as an attack.

I don't see any sense in which this is bullying.

I come to your car, cut your breaks, tell you just before you go on a ride, say it's just research and I will repair them. What would you call a person like that?

I'm not sure, but i certainly wouldn't call them a bully.