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Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by stepbeek on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @02:58AM (#26871518)
I agreee that speculation on property solely as an asset is an issue, but don't really agree with the premise early in the article around the growth of cities. The argument strikes me as something like this:

* An increase in the size of urban areas would increase GDP by 4% * Anything which blocks this growth is bad * Home ownership blocks this increase * Therefore, home ownership is bad

The implicit premise is that anything which increases GDP is good. Is it? An obvious counterexample is around environmental regulation. We could almost certainly bump GDP in the short-term by deregulating, but would suffer the consequences a few decades down the line.

I really like the economist and they make their bias clear, but I am a little frustrated with the rhetoric that ever growing GDP is an ethical imperative.

Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by imtringued on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @03:39AM (#26871782)
Speculation isn't the problem. Speculation is like a time machine for prices. Speculators use information to discover the true price of an asset and keep buying until the difference between the market price and the "true price" shrinks to 0. In other words, they are making the market more efficient for buyers and sellers. Buyers benefit when the asset would be overpriced because of volatility. Sellers benefit when the asset would be undervalued because of volatility.

It turns out that the price of housing will go up in the future because of various reasons (primarily migration), but that information is available today. So what does the price time machine do? It transports future prices in the present and oh boy are those prices unbelievably high. The speculators are essentially whistleblowers. They are saying that the emperor has no clothes and promptly get burned on the stake.

Let's assume the opposite, that speculation itself was the problem, and not an external factor that is only brought to light. It would imply that the market price is exceeding the "true price" of the underlying asset and therefore the speculator will have a hard time selling his asset, unless another speculator buys the asset in an infinite loop. However, it doesn't change the fundamental problem, because at some point someone has to take the "true price" - market price loss because they are massively overpaying and cannot find a greater fool.

If you thought the latter was the case then you could just decide against buying a house because it is overpriced. Of course the problem is that no long lasting crash has occurred, even 2008 wasn't bad enough to keep house prices on a downward trend.

Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by Nursie on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @03:58AM (#26871909)
You ignore the fact that speculation adds significant demand in itself. If speculators can be seen to make money, more will join the market. This drives demand beyond what would be present if only owner-occupiers and landlords were buying. And what’s more in some markets like London it removes real-estate from use entirely as investment properties sit empty.

Your idea of a ‘true’ price is silly and part of the reason prices may go up in future is indeed the presence of ever more speculators. As they drive prices up, people end up paying more for smaller properties, stretching out their debt load just a little further, and raising the whole market. There is no ‘True’ price.

Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by gmtx725 on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @04:59AM (#26872305)
What even is a "true price", ontologically speaking?
Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by ephbit on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @03:30PM (#26894327)
Based on imtringued's use of the term, "true price" would mean the price (of an asset) that leaves no room for profiting from speculation. If there's no participant in the market left that anticipates the price of the asset to go up (correcting for inflation) in the relevant time frame (and also no participant that anticipates the price to fall), then the current price might be called the "true price" for the relevant time frame.
Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by WalterBright on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @03:06AM (#26871567)
> I agreee that speculation on property solely as an asset is an issue

Speculation helps create a liquid market and stabilize prices.

Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by yetihehe on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @03:16AM (#26871640)
In practice, speculation maximises value extracted by speculators. But yes, "maximum bearable" price is stable.
Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by WalterBright on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @05:35AM (#26872527)
All sellers maximize the sale price.
Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by yetihehe on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @05:49AM (#26872608)
Original sellers are makers. They create and sell at reasonable price. Speculators only buy to sell at higher price, thus their only reason to exist is to be the one between people who value something more than it's previous price and those selling at previous price. And they want to buy at lower price before other people can buy at that lower price. They don't contribute anything. They just insert themselves and sell not at reasonable price, but at max price than can be paid.
Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by WalterBright on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @04:04PM (#26880762)
> They create and sell at reasonable price.

I'm afraid there's no evidence whatsoever that makers sell at lower prices than speculators. Everyone sells for as much as possible. There's nothing magic about speculators that enable them to get higher prices.

> And they want to buy at lower price before other people can buy at that lower price.

Every buyer tries to do that.

> They don't contribute anything.

Yes, they do. They provide liquidity, and reduce volatility. For example, the only reason a seller sells to a speculator is if the speculator offers to sell at a higher price than others. The only reason a buyer buys from a speculator is the speculator is offering it at a lower price than others.

There is no magic "speculator market" that operates under different rules and different prices.

Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by yetihehe on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @03:29AM (#26886428)
> There's nothing magic about speculators that enable them to get higher prices.

> For example, the only reason a seller sells to a speculator is if the speculator offers to sell at a higher price than others.

Yeah, it's not magic.

If there was not speculator in the middle, buyer would look for another seller, who probably could have lower price. And that seller could sell at still higher price, because he doesn't have to pay speculator for finding him a buyer. A little more work for seller and buyer, but because speculator makes this work, doesn't negate "just extracting value from being in the middle".

Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by Twisell on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @03:11AM (#26871603)
Jargon an technicalities help creating bubble and loosing focus on what matters for humankind.
Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by stepbeek on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @03:37AM (#26871773)
The article lays out that Germany - a market where property isn't speculated on - has stable houseprices. This is in contrast to English-speaking countries where speculation has caused houseprices to grow beyond the reach of most millenials.

It doesn't strike me that speculation has led to stable prices here.

Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by ChuckNorris89 on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @05:54AM (#26872639)
>The article lays out that Germany - a market where property isn't speculated on

Excuse me?! Has the author actually done any research into the real estate markets of the big German cities or is he just making this stuff up?

Germany is not safe from real-estate speculation, I can guarantee you that, otherwise 80sqm flats in Munich wouldn't have reached 1.1 Million Euros[1].

[1]https://www.t-online.de/finanzen/immobilien-wohnen/immobilie...

Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by MandieD on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @07:46AM (#26873313)
Laughs in Franconian dialect

We started thinking about buying when we moved to the Nuremberg area in 2012, and started our serious house hunt in 2014. It took a full year before we managed to get an offer accepted, and we were offering full asking price, because we had to wait a few days to get mortgage approvals instead of having 300k-500k EUR in cash. We ended up with a mid-50s row house that could use new bathrooms and windows in Nuremberg's largest neighboring city/suburb, only because the seller wanted a buyer who she thought would actually live in it themselves... and are keenly aware of our good fortune. We would have to pay about 60-70% more than we did just 5 years ago to get the same thing in livable condition in this location now.

Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by WalterBright on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @04:28AM (#26872124)
What the article says about Germany:

"Most important, in a few places the rate of home ownership is low and no one bats an eyelid. It is just 50% in Germany, which has a rental sector that encourages long-term tenancies and provides clear and enforceable rights for renters. With ample supply and few tax breaks or subsidies for owner-occupiers, home ownership is far less alluring and the political clout of nimbys is muted. Despite strong recent growth in some cities, Germany’s real house prices are, on average, no higher than they were in 1980."

Nowhere does the article say that speculators are the cause of high prices. Speculators are the result of a rapidly changing market, not the cause.

Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by pjc50 on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @04:22AM (#26872086)
That's "market making". Speculation tends to increase volatility.
Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by WalterBright on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @04:30AM (#26872140)
> Speculation tends to increase volatility.

Speculators make money off of prices deviating from the norm (i.e. volatility) and every time they make money off of a price difference, it pushes that price back to the norm. I.e. it decreases volatility.

The fact that speculators are attracted to volatility is an effect of volatility, not a cause.

Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by Nursie on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @05:48AM (#26872596)
This ignores everything about supply/demand and market bubbles.
Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by WalterBright on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @03:59PM (#26880678)
Not at all. Bubbles are only obvious in hindsight. If somehow you are prescient enough to recognize them reliably in advance, you can make yourself a cool billion easy.
Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by Nursie on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @05:20PM (#26881869)
This still ignores that speculation can contribute to them, and can move the market. It's is not a rebuttal or an explanationa.
Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by WalterBright on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @10:41PM (#26884838)
If speculators realize there's a bubble, they'll short it and thereby make money when it collapses.

Shorting a bubble moderates its price rise.

Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by Nursie on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @04:57AM (#26886993)
And if they don't realise there's a bubble, but continue to add 'buy' side pressure?

Speculators are part of the market, not observers, and they absolutely contribute to rising prices, not just price discovery, because they add demand.

Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by WalterBright on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @05:33AM (#26887259)
> they absolutely contribute to rising prices ... because they add demand

Speculators buy and sell, in equal measure. That's what makes them speculators. It's a net zero.

If they bought and held, they'd be investors.

Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by Nursie on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @06:05AM (#26887478)
Helping to push up prices as they do so, attracting more speculators. That's not a net zero.

They also hold what are limited resources for a non-zero amount of time, reducing supply in aggregate. More speculators, more supply constraint.

This is not some sort of idealised marketplace where people can dip in and out without any effect.

Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by WalterBright on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @04:15PM (#26894856)
You're missing that they short things they believe are overvalued, like in bubbles.

> This is not some sort of idealised marketplace where people can dip in and out without any effect.

You're right. Speculators work to decrease the peak of a bubble and increase the value of a dip.

The misapprehension is thinking the effect is only one way.

Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by Nursie on Monday April 26, 2021 @10:24AM (#26942811)
> You're missing that they short things they believe are overvalued

In the housing market? LOL.

> Speculators work to decrease the peak of a bubble and increase the value of a dip.

Except that's nonsense, they increase the demand on an already massively in-demand resource, accelerating price rises.

Your ideas fly in the face of observable reality.

Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by shuckles on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @03:02AM (#26871544)
It’s easy to say this as someone wealthy enough to spend time commenting on online forums. What is the economic externality of urban infill development?
Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by stepbeek on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @03:36AM (#26871768)
> It’s easy to say this as someone wealthy enough to spend time commenting on online forums

This feels a little ad-hominem. I criticised the argument laid out in the article. Do you agree with the point made in the article? If so, why?

Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by shuckles on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @01:30PM (#26877674)
You’re making the point that GDP is not a perfect measure, without offering any that are better. It’s easy to wonder who economic growth helps when you are in the diminished marginal returns part of the curve.
Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by ggm on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @03:34AM (#26871752)
Loss of greenspace mainly.