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Re:Thanks for the Bonus, I Quit by donw on Saturday April 17, 2021 @10:15PM (#26849243)
> Startup employees going home at 5 and fighting unreasonable schedules?

Absolutely.

First, overwork doesn't lead to more productivity for knowledge workers. You get to pay that piper one way or another in the end.

Second, back in the day, if your company was acquired for multiple billions, you had a pretty good shot at a life-changing infusion of cash.

Nowadays, stock options given to employees often end up being worth nothing, even on a successful exit.

Why work hard for a slim chance at bupkis?

Re:Thanks for the Bonus, I Quit by papito on Sunday April 18, 2021 @07:33AM (#26851597)
Equity is just another way to not give you money in most cases. Unless you are at the founding level, wasting years of your life for just a few extra thousand dollars? Imagine if you were getting paid $150K instead of $100K + options. In three years, do you think your options would yield $150,000 in case of a liquidity event, in the BEST case scenario?
Re:Thanks for the Bonus, I Quit by zepto on Saturday April 17, 2021 @11:14PM (#26849541)
> Nowadays, stock options given to employees often end up being worth nothing, even on a successful exit.

This seems unlikely.

Exits and IPOs have much greater valuations now than they did ‘back in the day’ so far more early employees end up with a significant infusion of cash.

Re:Thanks for the Bonus, I Quit by alasdair_ on Saturday April 17, 2021 @11:50PM (#26849679)
Companies are also taking FAR longer to exit/IPO than they did back in the day and most companies still have a 90 day limit on ISOs.

How many super early employees are able to hang on for a decade until IPO, or have the cash to exercise their options before they leave?

Re:Thanks for the Bonus, I Quit by drfuchs on Sunday April 18, 2021 @12:55AM (#26849924)
Super-early employee here. Pay for your options your first day of employment. They should be inexpensive; and your employer should be willing to give you a signing bonus to cover it (after all, the money just goes right back to them). Then when you leave, you get to keep all vested shares with no tax consequence, no need to pony up any cash, and no need to sell right away. Worked out great for me.
Re:Thanks for the Bonus, I Quit by dmarlow on Sunday April 18, 2021 @01:27AM (#26850025)
This is the way for companies to do right by the first few employees (and have a longer than 90 exercise window when leaving). I know a super early employee who left and had to take a loan to exercise and pay taxes. It's kind of sad to think about it.
Re:Thanks for the Bonus, I Quit by alasdair_ on Sunday April 18, 2021 @11:59AM (#26853557)
I currently have a six figure tax bill because of exactly this issue. And I can’t sell the shares to anyone because transfer is forbidden.
Re:Thanks for the Bonus, I Quit by maerF0x0 on Sunday April 18, 2021 @12:55PM (#26854116)
> And I can’t sell the shares to anyone because transfer is forbidden.

IMO this should be illegal. It's your property and they should not be allowed to bar it's sale.

Re:Thanks for the Bonus, I Quit by zepto on Sunday April 18, 2021 @01:55PM (#26854722)
Shares aren’t really ‘property’. They are a financial / legal instrument created by statutes and contracts.
Re:Thanks for the Bonus, I Quit by maerF0x0 on Sunday April 18, 2021 @12:54PM (#26854104)
> They should be inexpensive; and your employer should be willing to give you a signing bonus to cover it (after all, the money just goes right back to them).

The first part of this can be false. If you're 1/2 way to billions IPO then your options can easily be a year or more of salary to exercise.

About the second part if the company gives you that as a signing bonus you're still on the hook to the IRS for the bonus so now you're 10s of 10000s deep on an illiquid position.

Re:Thanks for the Bonus, I Quit by drfuchs on Sunday April 18, 2021 @01:33PM (#26854513)
If the company is half way to a big IPO, then any new hire is no longer "super early," and the advice doesn't pertain.
Re:Thanks for the Bonus, I Quit by maerF0x0 on Sunday April 18, 2021 @02:17PM (#26854895)
>Super-early employee here.

The advice giver is super-early, not the target of said advice.

But I agree that the advice is best suited for super-early people.

Re:Thanks for the Bonus, I Quit by drfuchs on Sunday April 18, 2021 @02:28PM (#26854974)
The target of the advice specifically asked about the super-early case: "How many super early employees are..."
Re:Thanks for the Bonus, I Quit by mattm on Sunday April 18, 2021 @10:37AM (#26852849)
How does this work when they haven't vested yet?
Re:Thanks for the Bonus, I Quit by richardxia on Sunday April 18, 2021 @12:12PM (#26853684)
If your company allows for it, you can early exercise and file a 83(b) election so that even as your options vest over time, you only pay taxes for the spread between your strike price and the fair market value at the date of the early exercise, rather than the date of vesting. The taxes can be 0 if you early exercise when the fair market value _is_ the same as your strike price.

https://www.investopedia.com/terms/e/earlyexercise.asp

https://www.investopedia.com/terms/1/83b-election.asp

Re:Thanks for the Bonus, I Quit by alain94040 on Sunday April 18, 2021 @12:08PM (#26853643)
It's called election 83(b). For it to work, the company grants you restricted stock instead of options. The restriction is that the company can buy back the stock on a vesting schedule, so it's effectively equivalent to stock-options. The difference is that you can buy all of them on day 1 at fair market value and pay no tax.

It's usually done for early employees who join before multiple rounds of funding occur.

Re:Thanks for the Bonus, I Quit by NegativeLatency on Sunday April 18, 2021 @01:04PM (#26854200)
Lots of places have cliffs now, how does that strategy account for not being allowed to buy them because you haven’t worked there long enough?
Re:Thanks for the Bonus, I Quit by drfuchs on Sunday April 18, 2021 @01:31PM (#26854475)
You pay ahead, and if you don't make the cliff, or if you leave after the 1 year cliff but before the full 4 year vest, you get the shares you vested, and a refund of the cash that didn't end up buying the rest.
Re:Thanks for the Bonus, I Quit by icedchai on Sunday April 18, 2021 @11:22AM (#26853241)
You need to consider that a very, very small percentage of companies have IPOs.

Many "successful" exits are actually acqui-hires, where a larger company acquires a dead or dying company for its talent. Often the product from that company is immediately shutdown, or at least shelved and no longer actively developed.

Other "successful" exits pay some percentage back to the recent preferred shareholders. Earlier investors are not made whole. Common shareholders generally get nothing.

Founders will still spin these "exits" a positive because they didn't have to shut down. The reality is the venture was a failure. Employees got jobs... that they could've had anyway.

Re:Thanks for the Bonus, I Quit by zepto on Sunday April 18, 2021 @12:56PM (#26854119)
Sure - I’m just suggesting that it wasn’t better in some mythical past.
Re:Thanks for the Bonus, I Quit by dhosek on Sunday April 18, 2021 @09:25AM (#26852228)
In my 30 year career, I have never had a stock option worth a single penny. When I have someone talk up options as part of a compensation package, I tell them that options are nice, but my experience is that they have had no value in my past and that's the value that I'll assign them in the present and the future.
Re:Thanks for the Bonus, I Quit by zepto on Sunday April 18, 2021 @12:57PM (#26854134)
I’m with you on this. I just don’t think it was better in the past.
Re:Thanks for the Bonus, I Quit by goatinaboat on Sunday April 18, 2021 @07:02AM (#26851452)
far more early employees end up with a significant infusion of cash

One word: dilution

Re:Thanks for the Bonus, I Quit by zepto on Sunday April 18, 2021 @12:56PM (#26854126)
Dilution is not new.
Re:Thanks for the Bonus, I Quit by barry-cotter on Sunday April 18, 2021 @12:52AM (#26849912)
> First, overwork doesn't lead to more productivity for knowledge workers. You get to pay that piper one way or another in the end.

I have never seen any research showing net negative productivity for any job for under 60 hours a week of work. Overwork sucks but if you have evidence that it’s bad for productivity please cite it.

Re:Thanks for the Bonus, I Quit by ipaddr on Sunday April 18, 2021 @02:14AM (#26850220)
If you typed those words into google instead of asking for research you would have found this and millions of other documents.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cnbc.com/amp/2015/01/26/wor...

Re:Thanks for the Bonus, I Quit by barry-cotter on Sunday April 18, 2021 @03:02AM (#26850394)
From the academic paper linked to in that news article

> the hours at which output is a maximum is at 67 and at 64, respectively. In fact, there are a few cases in which actual observations on hours of work exceed 67 and 64 meaning that, in these instances, average observed hours were at levels where the estimated marginal product of hours is negative!

http://ftp.iza.org/dp8129.pdf

The Productivity of Working Hours John Pencavel April 2014

I believe this is in line with what I wrote

> I have never seen any research showing net negative productivity for any job for under 60 hours a week of work.

Re:Thanks for the Bonus, I Quit by dudeman13 on Sunday April 18, 2021 @06:38AM (#26851342)
The original claim was about knowledge workers.

In repetitive work of course more time is always gonna be more productive, with diminishing returns. Until the worker/slave mind or body breaks at least.

Mind you, I'm not saying the same doesn't apply for knowledge workers. Just that this specific articles doesn't provide evidence for knowledge workers.

I imagine that there will be more science being done for productivity on knowledge workers once there's some decent way of measuring productivity for knowledge workers.

Re:Thanks for the Bonus, I Quit by barry-cotter on Sunday April 18, 2021 @07:51AM (#26851677)
My original claim was that there’s no research showing negative productivity for any job for less than 60 hours a week of work. If you have anything to the contrary please share.

There is no reason to believe knowledge workers are any different than manual workers here. Your productivity turns negative when you make so many mistakes that you’re destroying value, not creating it. The article may be only weak evidence for knowledge workers but it certainly isn’t no evidence. Other forms of evidence while not rising to the standards of publication certainly don’t point to 40 hours work a week being optimal for productivity of most knowledge workers. Physicians, professors at research institutions, top tier lawyers, all these people work insane hours.

There is no evidence that working less than 60 hours a week is better for productivity, anywhere, just a bunch of people wishing really hard.

Re:Thanks for the Bonus, I Quit by maerF0x0 on Sunday April 18, 2021 @01:01PM (#26854174)
> Your productivity turns negative when you make so many mistakes that you’re destroying value, not creating it.

One thing to consider about knowledge/skill workers vs unskilled labor is that most complex systems are house of cards style situations where a single mistake can both destroy a network effect of value, but also take several orders of magnitude of time and effort to detect and rectify the actual issue.

Introducing a subtle, but value destroying, bug into a system can do value damage to the N systems it interconnects with, and can lead to a near total loss of the whole system (eg: drop table). Of course there are safeguards that can help avoid this like backups, but still the point is a carpenter wouldn't make the whole house worthless by a misplaced nail.

Re:Thanks for the Bonus, I Quit by Ma8ee on Sunday April 18, 2021 @06:51AM (#26851402)
That study is of manual labour. Why do you think it says anything about knowledge work?
Re:Thanks for the Bonus, I Quit by barry-cotter on Sunday April 18, 2021 @07:56AM (#26851713)
Because manual workers and knowledge workers get mentally weary in the same way and make mistakes in the same way, using their brains. Your muscles are perfectly capable of going longer. Your attention span, working intelligence and executive function are going to get messed up whether you’re putting 60 hours into putting the right amount of powder into every container or checking the Excel formulas are all correct.

Manual laborers are people no less than accountants or mathematicians.

Re:Thanks for the Bonus, I Quit by Ma8ee on Sunday April 18, 2021 @12:44PM (#26854009)
Ok, there’s just so many facts contrary to all normal experiences, so I’d like to see some sources. For example, I can easily work twelve hours per day while painting the facades of my home, without being mentally fatigued, only bored. But my body is surely sore after climbing up and down stairs all day. On the other hand, I’m hardly capable of doing six hours of really focused mental work per day.
Re:Thanks for the Bonus, I Quit by mattm on Sunday April 18, 2021 @10:43AM (#26852920)
Re:Thanks for the Bonus, I Quit by dmarlow on Sunday April 18, 2021 @01:23AM (#26850010)
> Overwork sucks but if you have evidence that it’s bad for productivity please cite it.

Seriously? Of all things, something so obvious like this needs needs citation?

Re:Thanks for the Bonus, I Quit by barry-cotter on Sunday April 18, 2021 @02:02AM (#26850169)
Feel free to name any category of professional where working over 40 hours a week isn’t quite normal. Doctors, lawyers, engineers, professors. It sure looks like people who work more than 40 hours a week on average do better than those who don’t. This is not a claim about what I wish was true, but about what actually seems to be true.

The actual research on this is scarce to the point of non-existence. It may actually be non-existent for knowledge workers, at least published work.

Re:Thanks for the Bonus, I Quit by rualca on Sunday April 18, 2021 @04:42AM (#26850847)
> Feel free to name any category of professional where working over 40 hours a week isn’t quite normal.

YMMV but the only time I ever experienced the myth that "working over 40 hours a week is the norm" was when I started working at a US-based company.

And the only reason unpaid overtime was the norm was that managers, specially skip-level management, did a piss-poor job establishing sane goals based on realistic time-frames, and typically threatened to fire people pretty much each and every single week if they did not met those unrealistic goals.

Strangely enough, everywhere else people managed to do their job within the 40hours work week.

Re:Thanks for the Bonus, I Quit by wott on Sunday April 18, 2021 @05:23AM (#26851044)
> YMMV but the only time I ever experienced the myth that "working over 40 hours a week is the norm" was when I started working at a US-based company.

Even in France, where the base legal hours are only 35 hours a week, intellectual/upper professions in a full-time position work an average of 43 hours a week.

That's the average which includes women, who work 10% less (in terms of number of hours worked) than men. If you only consider men, you reach an average week of 45 hours for those professions.

Re:Thanks for the Bonus, I Quit by alisonkisk on Sunday April 18, 2021 @05:03AM (#26850929)
Yes, many places are willing to have lower productivity in exchange for higher quality of life. The US has a different culture and has most economically dominant companies.
Re:Thanks for the Bonus, I Quit by rualca on Sunday April 18, 2021 @03:08PM (#26855343)
> The US has a different culture and has most economically dominant companies.

The US's post-WW2 dominance doesn't explain why layers of lower management from the US stationed abroad insist in scheduling 3 weeks worth of work into 1 week in spite of being fully aware of how long the task takes, and afterwards boast to their leadership that their non-US teams outperformed US-based teams by a long shot while leaving out that team some non-US developers had to pull consecutive all-nighters to pull it off.

Re:Thanks for the Bonus, I Quit by emodendroket on Sunday April 18, 2021 @10:27AM (#26852741)
Don't know that you can really make a meaningful comparison given the political and military dominance of the United States.
Re:Thanks for the Bonus, I Quit by barry-cotter on Sunday April 18, 2021 @05:12AM (#26850975)
> YMMV but the only time I ever experienced the myth that "working over 40 hours a week is the norm" was when I started working at a US-based company.

Irish lawyers and doctors work well over 40 hours a week on average too. I feel pretty confident the same is true in finance. Tax professionals in Spain do too. That about exhausts my personal knowledge of working hours in Europe but I kind of doubt management work less than 40 hours a week anywhere, even the civil service.

> and typically threatened to fire people pretty much each and every single week if they did not met those unrealistic goals.

The secret to greater American productivity and hence wealth. People just work more hours.

Re:Thanks for the Bonus, I Quit by freeflight on Sunday April 18, 2021 @08:21AM (#26851809)
> Feel free to name any category of professional where working over 40 hours a week isn’t quite normal.

Just because something is considered "normal" does not mean that it's actually efficient, or "good".

Certain job sectors, like social jobs, have been chronically overworked and underpaid for pretty much as long as they existed. Even during non-pandemic times burn-out, depression, and suicide rates of people working in healthcare have been way above those of the average population, particularly the people who actually do all the "grunt work" like nurses.

A situation has become much worse during this pandemic, yet remains largely ignored.

> It sure looks like people who work more than 40 hours a week on average do better than those who don’t.

Tell that to people working in logistics, those people delivering you packages the next day. Ask them how many hours they work and how "well off" they are financially in exchange for giving up large parts of their private life.

As a matter of fact, only two out of the 4 professions you listed are actually considered overworked to a degree of burnout: Physicians and attorneys [0].

The vast majority of the rest of the list is populated by professions that are generally not considered well-earning even when working massive hours: Nurses, social workers, teachers, school principals, police officers, public accounting, fast food or retail.

Most of these professions would have a very lasting and visible impact if they were gone, it would make society overall objectively worse to be missing them, yet somehow society at large still refuses to properly recognize that trough proper financial compensation even with many hours worked at very important tasks.

[0] https://stress.lovetoknow.com/Which_Professionals_are_Prone_...

Re:Thanks for the Bonus, I Quit by HelloNurse on Sunday April 18, 2021 @01:32PM (#26854494)
Working any number of hours isn't "normal", it's a trade off between free time and money (for example, colleagues who work part time in order to sleep late) and a consequence of social pressure (e.g. competitive attitude) and practical constraints (e.g. keeping a shop open at constant and useful hours).

In some cases people want to work, to some extent, because their job is more pleasant than their free time activities, but it cannot be considered "normal".

Re:Thanks for the Bonus, I Quit by emodendroket on Sunday April 18, 2021 @10:24AM (#26852717)
Medical error is apparently the third-leading cause of death in the United States (see https://www.cnbc.com/2018/02/22/medical-errors-third-leading...). It certainly seems plausible that our culture of overworking doctors contributes to that significantly.
Re:Thanks for the Bonus, I Quit by FireBeyond on Sunday April 18, 2021 @02:29PM (#26854985)
Not just doctors. EMTs will regularly work, 24, 36, 48 hours straight. I know EMTs whose timecards will regularly show 350 hours worked a month.
Re:Thanks for the Bonus, I Quit by emodendroket on Sunday April 18, 2021 @03:29PM (#26855535)
Sure, just playing along with the OP's parameters.
Re:Thanks for the Bonus, I Quit by ipaddr on Sunday April 18, 2021 @02:35AM (#26850308)
Normal for whom?

Specialist doctors are not staying late on a Friday or working the weekend. While a walkin clinic doctor might be pushing 60 hours.

An average business owner might spend more than 40 hours a week. The most successful business owners hire people to work for them while they enjoy their lives.

8 hours of tired programming gets less done compared to a well rested 3 hour work session.

Re:Thanks for the Bonus, I Quit by objclxt on Sunday April 18, 2021 @06:48AM (#26851388)
> Specialist doctors are not staying late on a Friday or working the weekend

This isn’t true. Obstetricians work 24 hour shifts as standard. Babies don’t get born 9-5.

If you come into the ER on a Friday night with severe brain damage you’re seeing the neurologist immediately. If you have a punctured lung you’re not waiting for the pulmonologist to clock in at 9AM.

Nearly all medical specialties work shift patterns or are required to be on call.

Re:Thanks for the Bonus, I Quit by barry-cotter on Sunday April 18, 2021 @03:14AM (#26850454)
As best I can tell the specialty with the lowest annual hours worked is pediatric emergency medicine at around 52 hours a week. Vascular surgery average 66 hours a week. If you want to check my calculations the below paper has annual work hours for different specialties.

Annual Work Hours Across Physician Specialties

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/articl...

Pop article in magazine for physicians

> 2018 Average Physician Hours Worked Per Week Physician Type Average Physician Workweek Age 45 years or less 54.73 hours Age 46 years or more 49.87 hours Male physicians 51.89 hours Female physicians 50.46 hours Practice owners 51.96 hours Employed physicians 53.73 hours Primary care physicians 50.64 hours Physician specialists 51.76 hours

https://www.locumleaders.com/physician-news/the-average-phys...

Re:Thanks for the Bonus, I Quit by jac241 on Sunday April 18, 2021 @08:46AM (#26851933)
Maybe plastic surgery, dermatology, rheumatology, and psychiatry don't, but other doctors are going to be splitting weekends and call among the members of their group. For specialties that have fewer doctors nationwide like vascular surgery, cardiothoracic surgery, and neurosurgery you can expect to be on home-call every third night and covering the weekend every third weekend. You might have to come in to operate every other call, and on the weekend you'll have to round on all of your group's patients on Saturday and Sunday and operate if anything operative comes in.
Re:Thanks for the Bonus, I Quit by dhosek on Sunday April 18, 2021 @09:28AM (#26852250)
My sister-in-law is an Ob/Gyn. Yes, there's call, but that gets compensated for by fewer hours during the M-F week. There's a reason why doctors on the golf course on Wednesdays is a cliche.