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Re:French lawmakers approve a ban on short domestic flights by Mister_Snuggles on Sunday April 11, 2021 @12:29PM (#26771500)
I used to regularly travel from Edmonton to Calgary for work. When you add up the extra time required for flying, it's about a three hour trip (45 minutes in the air, the rest is getting to the airport, checking in, etc). Coincidentally, it's also about a three hour drive.

My reasons for driving vs flying were usually to do with how long I'd be there. If I was going for one day then flying was preferable since falling asleep on the way home isn't a big deal. If I was going for multiple days then driving was preferable so that I'd have a car and be able to go places after finishing at the office. Flying was preferable in winter in case the roads were in bad shape. Driving was preferable on Fridays so that I could visit friends afterwards and come back the next day. Flying was preferable during the Calgary Stampede to avoid having to deal with the excess traffic in Calgary (plus WestJet did a cowboy-themed safety lecture during Stampede which was kind of neat).

Re:French lawmakers approve a ban on short domestic flights by Teever on Sunday April 11, 2021 @07:32PM (#26774548)
The Red Arrow bus line from Edmonton to Calgary is the best of both worlds. Pick-up/Drop-offs from city core to city core as well as other stops along the way, Free wifi and beverages on the bus, decent seats for working during the stress free commute.
Re:French lawmakers approve a ban on short domestic flights by Mister_Snuggles on Sunday April 11, 2021 @09:49PM (#26775386)
I only travelled on Red Arrow once, but not for work, and it was really nice. I can't recall why I never used it for work though.
Re:French lawmakers approve a ban on short domestic flights by publicola1990 on Sunday April 11, 2021 @01:49PM (#26772090)
In general though flying is much safer than highway driving. If one wanted to minimize risk, one would always fly.
Re:French lawmakers approve a ban on short domestic flights by js2 on Sunday April 11, 2021 @10:07PM (#26775498)
The difference in relative risk is high, but the absolute risk of dying in a car is still pretty low if you're sober, wearing a seatbelt, and not speeding. Oh, and apparently if you're not driving in the U.S. Geez, didn't realize we're such crappy drivers here.

https://www.cdc.gov/vitalsigns/motor-vehicle-safety/index.ht...

Re:French lawmakers approve a ban on short domestic flights by ziml77 on Sunday April 11, 2021 @11:57PM (#26775945)
It's really easy to get a license in the US and cops focus on looking for speeders over other forms of dangerous driving.
Re:French lawmakers approve a ban on short domestic flights by AnthonyMouse on Monday April 12, 2021 @02:09AM (#26776444)
It's mostly not that people in the US drive worse, it's that people in the US drive more. Similar risk multiplied by more miles leads to more fatalities.
Re:French lawmakers approve a ban on short domestic flights by bildung on Monday April 12, 2021 @02:24AM (#26776516)
Sadly that isn't the case: The actual fatalities and accidents per billion km driven is higher in the US than many other industrialized countries, so it's not about more km/miles being driven in the US: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_traffic-r...
Re:French lawmakers approve a ban on short domestic flights by AnthonyMouse on Monday April 12, 2021 @03:15PM (#26783794)
In terms of fatalities per billion km the US is between Belgium and New Zealand. Not really up there with Somalia.

And the ranking there is kind of misleading because the types of countries that collect fatalities per unit distance at all are the ones that tend to do really well on it. We don't have the data for Russia or China but guesstimating based on accidents per 100k vehicles, it's bad.

Whereas e.g. Germany does really well. But fatalities per unit distance for the US isn't even twice the number in Germany, whereas in terms of fatalities per 100k population, the US is 335% of Germany. Consistent with the bulk of the difference being explained in terms of more miles traveled.

Re:French lawmakers approve a ban on short domestic flights by Guthur on Monday April 12, 2021 @02:43AM (#26776605)
Are they also reluctant to wear seat belts?
Re:French lawmakers approve a ban on short domestic flights by bildung on Monday April 12, 2021 @03:37AM (#26776849)
Re:French lawmakers approve a ban on short domestic flights by hansvm on Monday April 12, 2021 @11:06AM (#26780195)
I'd be curious to know what exactly makes the difference so pronounced.

My pet theory is that people don't know how dangerous their actions are _and_ feel entitled to break laws they deem useless. About 4 times out of 5 when somebody nearly hits me blowing through a stop sign and crosswalk they'll stop and apologize profusely, indicating they probably didn't intend to put me in harm's way. That's not a huge dataset though (at most a few times per week), and it doesn't say anything about tailgating or other forms of dangerous driving.

Re:French lawmakers approve a ban on short domestic flights by martin8412 on Monday April 12, 2021 @05:00AM (#26777283)
Several things will need to change for that number to be lower. Licenses needs to be much more difficult to obtain, and a lot easier to lose. There are things allowed on American roads that could cost you your license in countries with lower numbers. Cars should have higher safety standards.

Basically a lot of people wouldn't be able to drive anymore.

Re:French lawmakers approve a ban on short domestic flights by lovasoa on Sunday April 11, 2021 @04:55PM (#26773337)
Flying is actually much more dangerous than driving. The risk is to destroy the environment that sustains life on earth. This does not even compare with the risk of a car or plane accident.
Re:French lawmakers approve a ban on short domestic flights by GuB-42 on Sunday April 11, 2021 @06:12PM (#26773950)
If you are alone in your car, flying and driving are in the same ballpark when it comes to emissions.

Trains are much, much lower. Especially considering that in France, most lines are electrified and 70% of production is nuclear.

Re:French lawmakers approve a ban on short domestic flights by varajelle on Sunday April 11, 2021 @05:02PM (#26773399)
I believe it might be better for the environnement to share a full plane than be alone in your car, for equal distances.
Re:French lawmakers approve a ban on short domestic flights by jeromegv on Sunday April 11, 2021 @05:11PM (#26773478)
Quotation needed. All studies show the impact of flying as being much higher than driving, even when shared.
Re:French lawmakers approve a ban on short domestic flights by varajelle on Sunday April 11, 2021 @05:54PM (#26773811)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmental_impact_of_avia...

> in 2018, CO2 emissions averaged 88 grams of CO2 per revenue passenger per km.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmental_impact_of_tran...

> In Europe, the European Commission enforced that from 2015 all new cars registered shall not emit more than an average of 0.130 kg of CO2 per kilometre (kg CO2/km). The target is that by 2021 the average emissions for all new cars is 0.095 kg of CO2 per kilometre.

0.088 < 0.095

That said, the 88 grams figure might not be accurate for short flights. But we'd still be in the same order of magnitude as a car

Re:French lawmakers approve a ban on short domestic flights by antman on Sunday April 11, 2021 @08:59PM (#26775116)
If also air distance calculated as the crow flies vs actual car km the numbers will be more air travel favirable
Re:French lawmakers approve a ban on short domestic flights by lovasoa on Sunday April 11, 2021 @08:09PM (#26774787)
I think you are comparing unrelated things. The average car ride is thousands of times shorter than the average flight, and transports more than one person. You cannot just compare the average emissions of cars and planes and make the conclusion that it makes sense to choose a plane over a car to reduce your carbon footprint.

And even when you make this comparison with sensible data, the car still wins: https://ourworldindata.org/travel-carbon-footprint

Re:French lawmakers approve a ban on short domestic flights by lumost on Sunday April 11, 2021 @09:06PM (#26775150)
when comparing driving to flying between destinations, it's highly likely that the flight will have a shorter duration.

The big wrinkle in this comparison is that planes burn most of their energy in the ascent to cruising speed/altitude. Energy consumption per mile is likely to be much higher on a short hop flight where cruising altitude is never reached than a 12 hour transoceanic flight.

Re:French lawmakers approve a ban on short domestic flights by asdfasgasdgasdg on Sunday April 11, 2021 @09:25PM (#26775272)
On the other hand short-haul flights don't climb to as high of altitudes. They only climb about 2/3rds as high. But then again the air is thicker so cruising is less efficient. Oh gosh, for want of data.
Re:French lawmakers approve a ban on short domestic flights by jrockway on Monday April 12, 2021 @01:16AM (#26776259)
You have to assume that airlines have chosen a decent compromise here. Every wasted joule of energy translates to a higher fuel cost and a lower profit margin.
Re:French lawmakers approve a ban on short domestic flights by bluefirebrand on Sunday April 11, 2021 @06:07PM (#26773917)
Incidentally I think Calgary and Edmonton would be an ideal pair of cities to have some kind of high speed rail between. Would be a great alternative to air travel.
Re:French lawmakers approve a ban on short domestic flights by fredophile on Sunday April 11, 2021 @06:20PM (#26774006)
I'd agree in terms of distance and traffic between the two cities. However, the long, relatively severe winters would probably add some complications to high speed rail.
Re:French lawmakers approve a ban on short domestic flights by Clewza313 on Sunday April 11, 2021 @10:00PM (#26775466)
There are plenty of high-speed services (up to 350 km/h) in northern China, Korea, Japan and Russia, all of which have severe winters and (on the west coast of Japan) some of highest snowfalls on the planet.
Re:French lawmakers approve a ban on short domestic flights by inter_netuser on Sunday April 11, 2021 @06:48PM (#26774241)
Check out the rail to Bergen, in Norway. Shot in 4K.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=atyvdC15HFA

Re:French lawmakers approve a ban on short domestic flights by fredophile on Sunday April 11, 2021 @07:17PM (#26774436)
A quick search on Google tells me that train goes at 160 km/h. Not exactly high speed. It looks like they don't run into too many problems with weather related cancelations or delays though [0].

[0] https://www.globalrailwayreview.com/article/74614/norway-rai...

Re:French lawmakers approve a ban on short domestic flights by MarcusE1W on Monday April 12, 2021 @05:32AM (#26777487)
High speed trains in snow are indeed more difficult as the speed creates under pressure between the ground and the train. So much that even stones have to be remove otherwise they hit the train all the time.

This under pressure sucks up the snow and plasters it to the train.

In Germany at least ICE train speed is reduced (despite their name ;-) if there is snow on the track.

Re:French lawmakers approve a ban on short domestic flights by closeparen on Sunday April 11, 2021 @08:26PM (#26774898)
Amtrak generally averages about half that, so it seems pretty good.
Re:French lawmakers approve a ban on short domestic flights by fredophile on Sunday April 11, 2021 @08:52PM (#26775064)
The Edmonton to Calgary route is straight, flat, and has a mostly sparsely populated path. I'd hope that high speed rail under those conditions could do significantly better.

I also looked up Amtrak's speeds and found a report from 2016 saying that over half of their trains had a top speed of 160 km/h or greater.

Re:French lawmakers approve a ban on short domestic flights by xyzzyz on Sunday April 11, 2021 @10:35PM (#26775605)
> I also looked up Amtrak's speeds and found a report from 2016 saying that over half of their trains had a top speed of 160 km/h or greater.

This sentence can be interpreted in multiple ways. Maybe they mean that half of their trains could theoretically ride at 160 kph, but that doesn’t mean that they ever actually reach such speeds on their routes. Or, maybe, that half of their trains reach 160 kph on some fraction of their route, maybe very small one.

What I would be more interested in is their average speed according to schedule, weighted by the frequency of trains on a given segment, and same average but for actual ride times, including delays etc.

Re:French lawmakers approve a ban on short domestic flights by jcranmer on Sunday April 11, 2021 @10:45PM (#26775654)
Most of Amtrak's routes are likely to be on the NEC, where the top speed is I believe 140 mph (~200 km/h). Outside the NEC, the newest of the diesel fleet can probably reach 100mph (or 160 km/h), but the actual routes are unlikely to support that kind of speed with any amount of routine. Instead, the effective speed limit (again outside NEC) is going to be closer to ~60-70mph.
Re:French lawmakers approve a ban on short domestic flights by bluGill on Sunday April 11, 2021 @10:17PM (#26775534)
Amtrak mostly runs 1950s train service or worse. Don't use them as an example of anything.
Re:French lawmakers approve a ban on short domestic flights by Scoundreller on Sunday April 11, 2021 @07:06PM (#26774382)
Not sure if an electric rail-line would be an easy sell in Alberta.
Re:French lawmakers approve a ban on short domestic flights by alacombe on Sunday April 11, 2021 @07:35PM (#26774572)
Calgary/Edmonton seem to get about 2x as much snow as Bergen (~48" vs ~24"). Also, temperature fall much lower in Alberta than in Norway...
Re:French lawmakers approve a ban on short domestic flights by wirrbel on Sunday April 11, 2021 @06:35PM (#26774120)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trans-Siberian_Railway

Snow isn't an obstacle to trains (unless you don't want trains to be a reality).

Re:French lawmakers approve a ban on short domestic flights by fredophile on Sunday April 11, 2021 @07:19PM (#26774455)
The trans siberian railway isn't high speed. There are plans to make some of it high speed but the only article I could find was from 2018 and at that time it was still only in the early planning stages and expected to cost billions of USD [0].

[0] https://www.railway-technology.com/features/moscow-kazan-hig....

(Edited to fix an autocorrect correction from my phone)

Re:French lawmakers approve a ban on short domestic flights by go_blue_13 on Sunday April 11, 2021 @09:12PM (#26775189)
>trans siberian railway

>edmonton to calgary

I think think there's a slight difference between the things we're comparing

Re:French lawmakers approve a ban on short domestic flights by refurb on Sunday April 11, 2021 @09:31PM (#26775313)
It certainly makes things more difficult. You need to clear tracks, build shelters where there is avalanche risk.
Re:French lawmakers approve a ban on short domestic flights by refurb on Sunday April 11, 2021 @09:29PM (#26775304)
It’s been discussed but always seemed questionable to me. That corridor has <3M people living in it and is isolated from another other major city in Canada.

I can’t see building a high speed rail would be worth it for the volume of people going back and forth.

Re:French lawmakers approve a ban on short domestic flights by pomian on Sunday April 11, 2021 @11:51PM (#26775920)
I remember traveling by train, from Calgary to Edmonton, on return trips for the weekend. It was great fun, relaxing, with good food. Hard to beat that by driving in crazy weekend traffic. Or driving to the airport at each end, security theatre, cramped sitting, long walks, tired and hungry, at each end. (Train stations were down town, and at the ends of the city. Very convenient.)
Re:French lawmakers approve a ban on short domestic flights by option on Sunday April 11, 2021 @05:36PM (#26773676)
there are no good reasons why we spend so much time on the airports on funny useless procedures.