And things like this:
"Some times the things we have to do in life aren't immediately enjoyable. It's on us to find ways to make them more enjoyable (e.g. find a sport you like, or take up walking), and some times we just have to do the unenjoyable thing for the sake of progress."
Are just insanely tone deaf things people without ADHD wind up saying to ADHDers because they have the capacity to do those things and haven't experienced not having the capacity to do them.
Ultimately, I don't really trust the psychology field to determine what is a mental illness and what isn't. It wasn't that long ago that being gay was in the DSM.
It does terrible things to your health, finances, employment and relationships.
My difficulty with basic chores almost cost me my marriage, and I spent north of 1000 nights in the last 5 years doing the dishes at 2am dead last before going to bed because that was the only circumstance under which I could get myself to do them.
I think most people misunderstand it greatly because their frame is "can't focus" but that's pretty nebulous. A better frame is "having a disastrously shitty batting average on choosing what to direct your attention towards or away from". The chronic understimulation leads to engaging predominantly in things that provide enough stimulation, which often aren't what you're supposed to be doing, and getting locked in that mode because anything else pales in comparison so switching away feels almost painful.
Best metaphor I've come up with to describe the difference is imagine you had to live your whole life with no shoes. Imagine all the surfaces you've ever had to walk across and how that would have been without shoes. You'd be fairly reluctant to make transitions between certain surfaces due to the discomfort. So the routes you take would change. Some routes would lead you to not wind up at your intended destination due to needing to walk on a comfortable enough path. You'd always take longer than other people to get places.
Also it's not a mental illness, it's a neurodevelopmental disorder.
I say that as someone who definitely has something neurodivergent going on, as I do not know other people who get excited and have to pace around the house flapping their hands.
The result is that no one fit in it.
Expectations that other people can perform like you do if they just put their mind to it is so blind to the reality of human experience that it's hard to respond.
https://www.thestar.com/news/insight/2016/01/16/when-us-air-...
I never claimed that was the case. In fact, I specifically cited examples where no amount of hard work could close the gap to top performers.
I wasn't suggesting that everyone can perform equally if they just work hard enough. The point is that attention, focus, and work ethic are not static traits of an individual. Yes, we pivot around certain biological attributes, but that doesn't mean they're fixed.
We all benefit from putting in the work to improve our attention spans and other learned behaviors, regardless of our starting baseline.
He's trying to show him where his bootstraps are.
Unless you're living with ADHD, you really have no business handing out such directives. I was a hardcore meditator for years, arguably the crucible of mind training -- spent months of silent, directed attention in monasteries -- and despite blowing open the doors to some peak states, complete equanimity with all phenomena, and insight into some of the fundamental mechanics of desire and resistance, I was unable to hold any kind of job at all before I bit the bullet and medicated.
The decades of suffering I experienced because everyone around me was pushing this toxic narrative that ADHD was overdiagnosed and most likely a schema of my own failures could have been avoided if my parents just took a hard look at me and took me to a psychiatrist.
Armchair psychiatrists of Hacker News: please stop this irresponsible and dangerous public criticism of your interpretation of mental illness or the state of psychiatry.
From my perspective it's a positive message, not finger wagging at the impaired.
When the vast, vast majority of people are capable of a baseline far above yours, they hold you to their standards mercilessly.
The number of times I've been reduced to tears by this conversation. I'm telling you. This is by far the worst part of it all.
There's also an awful lot of people, as the parent said, who don't have ADHD but still struggle with {focus, attention, willpower} from just not having used it. Those people should definitely be trying to focus harder and shouldn't be led down the path of "focus is innate/unchangeable".
The incentives for me to be better are already as strong as they can possibly be. Not to screw up my health worse, not to lose my marriage, not to lose my job, not to make rash financial decisions. The amount of effort I put into this already is just exhausting.
I'm glad I recognise these days the times when the car is out of gas and people are telling me "if you just turned the key a little harder, maybe the car would turn on" and ignore them.
I do agree with what you're saying btw. I think you can and should try to improve things, no matter which side of the coin you're on. The crux of the issue is that it's very, very important to understand which side you're on because the advice and strategies are fundamentally very different.
I'm not at all worried about the people who think they might be ADHD. They fall into 3 camps. 1) people who suspect they have it and it's a life changing revelation and they seek treatment ASAP, 2) people who suspect they have it for a long time and are right but for some reason or other never do anything about it and 3) people who don't have it, and don't understand it well enough to realise they actually don't have it
Group 1 sorts itself pretty quick. The trouble is realising you're in group 1!!!! This is why from time to time I talk about it here if its mentioned. Once it clicks it's unbelievable. I'm very interested in helping those people as it's pretty life changing.
Group 2 I mourn for. But at least they can recognise what advice and strategies apply and understanding why their life is how it is. Knowing is half the battle.
Group 3 I'm not worried about at all. It can be such a devastating problem that when it clicks and you can finally connect the dots, you sort of know. For this group the dots will be too few and far between though naturally for everyone there will be some and they'll hum and haw about it and mull it over in their mind before forgetting about it altogether. If you genuinely think you have then you must feel as if there is and always has been something quite wrong with your life. Though you may simply identify with the list of symptoms because it's somewhat vague, and just be unsure as to what it really means. If you actually think it could be an answer to solving a problem in your life you will go for an evaluation. If you don't think it's an answer to solving a problem in your life then almost certainly you don't have it and will just forget about it. You may go for an evaluation and it comes back negative but unearthed a different problem at the cause of some real troubles for you, and that's ok, as it's a differential diagnosis for exactly that reason.
In the context of this mentoring group, we go through phases where almost everyone suspects they have ADHD for various reasons. This is usually triggered by one of two things: Either someone shares an online "Do you have ADHD quiz?" that is sponsored by Takeda or another ADHD medication manufacturer, or a front-page Reddit infographic misrepresents ADHD as something like "Do you some times forget people's names? Maybe you have ADHD!"
The reality is that ADHD is very challenging for those that have it, but the pop-culture definition of ADHD has become so vague that people who don't have ADHD are increasingly convinced that common life experiences are symptoms of ADHD.
Focusing is hard. Studying is hard. The Grind is hard. It's normal to struggle to focus, but it's even more of a struggle for those with ADHD. However, having to work to focus for extended periods of time, in and of itself, is not an ADHD symptom, it's just life. ADHD is a much more severe impediment.
(Again, not referring to the parent comment): Anyone curious should avoid self-diagnosis and seek a trusted professional. Ideally not a family doctor who simply writes prescriptions on request, but someone who can recommend self-guided therapy programs and combination treatment. Adderall isn't all it's made out to be, especially after the initial motivating effects wear off and you're left with the realities of long-term stimulant use, which are nowhere near as exciting as the first few doses.
> What if they are, though? What if it's like height, where genetics sets a range and environment picks a point in that range? If I had starved as a child, I would be shorter than I am now. But if I had eaten more, I would not be taller. I'm about the same height as my parents are.
Genetics and upbringing may set a baseline for focus and motivation, but those traits are demonstrably not set in stone. Contrary to your example, diet does have a significant influence on height, but it's not the sole determinant.
Height isn't a good example, though. Consider something like running capacity. Some people are naturally more athletic than others, but barring severe disorders, everyone can develop more running capacity through training. Someone who gives up and never tries to increase their capacity may not believe this, but it's true. An average person can't simply work their way up to competing with Olympic sprinters blessed with perfect genetics, but they can significantly increase their running capacity from baseline by putting in the work.
Likewise, attention is a learned skill. Some have more baseline attention span than others, but it can be increased through training and practice. ADHD modulates this, but it doesn't prevent practice from helping. If anything, people with ADHD need to invest more effort into training their attention spans than those without.
> Willpower doesn't seem to come naturally to me, even after 10 years as a professional programmer. Adderall didn't help
Adderall and other stimulants don't provide willpower, contrary to popular belief. Only people without tolerance will experience a temporary motivation boost from stimulants. This effect diminishes as tolerance sets in, which is one of several reasons why drugs like Adderall aren't successful for treating disorders like depression.
Willpower is another learned skill. Expecting it to come naturally won't work forever. You have to learn to embrace the grind, do the work, and power through the urges to give up and do something easier if you want to get anywhere.
> I don't exercise at all because it's not my interest.
The reality is that the things we need to do aren't always going to line up with the things we like to do. You're lucky that you have a natural interest in programming, but you can't expect every necessary activity to have a natural interest behind it. Some amount of physical activity is essentially required for a healthy existence. You may not be interested in it, but that doesn't exempt you from requiring it and it certainly doesn't mean you won't benefit from it.
Some times the things we have to do in life aren't immediately enjoyable. It's on us to find ways to make them more enjoyable (e.g. find a sport you like, or take up walking), and some times we just have to do the unenjoyable thing for the sake of progress.