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Re:A Critique of the Open Letter Calling for the Removal of RMS by dpatterbee on Wednesday April 07, 2021 @05:21AM (#26722233)
The problem is that gender is a complicated social issue and not every transgender person wants to be thrown into an "other" category with their pronouns. Given how simple it is to use someone's preferred pronouns once they've been made clear to you, I don't see how it's a problem to do so.
Re:A Critique of the Open Letter Calling for the Removal of RMS by insert_coin on Wednesday April 07, 2021 @05:42AM (#26722449)
This problem was created by trying to force people to say specific words.

You try to force RMS to say some words? guess what, he will now try to force his words onto you. You don't agree? neither does he, great, just great. There is no difference here. It is no more valid for you to force language on others than it is for him to try and do it.

Re:A Critique of the Open Letter Calling for the Removal of RMS by dragonwriter on Wednesday April 07, 2021 @06:58AM (#26723076)
> You try to force RMS to say some words?

You mean like “GNU/Linux”? It's really not a big leap from RMS’s thinking he gets to name other people’s things without their consent (and insist that other people folloq his preference) to his thinking he gets to name other people without their consent, and its truly backwards to think that either of those stems from people trying to “force” anything on Stallman.

Re:A Critique of the Open Letter Calling for the Removal of RMS by insert_coin on Wednesday April 07, 2021 @07:03AM (#26723128)
So, you realize that RMS is wrong on the GNU/Linux thing and somehow are still on the side of forcing pronouns?
Re:A Critique of the Open Letter Calling for the Removal of RMS by dragonwriter on Wednesday April 07, 2021 @10:43AM (#26725638)
> So, you realize that RMS is wrong on the GNU/Linux thing and somehow are still on the side of forcing pronouns?

No, I recognize that RMS is wrong on trying to impose his choice of names as designators of other people’s work, and also recognize that he is wrong, for pretty much the exact same reason though with more significance, to impose his choice of pronouns as designators of other people’s persons.

Re:A Critique of the Open Letter Calling for the Removal of RMS by insert_coin on Wednesday April 07, 2021 @11:28AM (#26726302)
Except that is not how it is. They are both asking, demanding, someone else to only use the words they deem tolerable.

Whatever the situation, no one has to comply with such demand.

Re:A Critique of the Open Letter Calling for the Removal of RMS by dragonwriter on Wednesday April 07, 2021 @11:56AM (#26726755)
> They are both asking, demanding, someone else to only use the words they deem tolerable.

Nope. No one is demanding that Richard Stallman restrict which pronouns he uses to some set of nonobjectionable pronouns.

People are demanding that, when referring to another person, Stallman not impose names or pronouns he has chosen when he has been informed of the name or pronouns (if any; in some cases the applicable preference is “don’t use pronouns”) which the person identifies as labels for themself.

> Whatever the situation, no one has to comply with such demand.

There are very few times when one strictly has to do anything. OTOH, people don’t have to voluntarily associate with, work with, or contribute to Richard Stallman, or projects or organizations he is associated with, either.

You are free to proudly, publicly proclaim that you will only refer to the 43rd President of the United States as Bu$Hitler, and that no one can impose on you a different choice of names for that person, but you probably should not expect to get a job as executive director of his Presidential Library having done so.

Doing essentially the same thing to a much larger set of people is likewise something one can do, but expecting it to not have consequences, especially on one’s suitability for a position that is fundamentally about public communication, is irrational.

Re:A Critique of the Open Letter Calling for the Removal of RMS by insert_coin on Wednesday April 07, 2021 @07:19PM (#26732881)
> Nope.....

> People are demanding that, when referring to another person, Stallman not impose names or pronouns he has chosen when he has been informed of the name or pronouns (if any; in some cases the applicable preference is “don’t use pronouns”) which the person identifies as labels for themself...

So in short...yes, they are demanding someone else to only use the words they deem tolerable.

Re:A Critique of the Open Letter Calling for the Removal of RMS by dragonwriter on Wednesday April 07, 2021 @08:59PM (#26733779)
> yes, they are demanding someone else to only use the words they deem tolerable.

again, no.

They are insisting that Stallman only label individuals with the labels the individuals have defined.

This isn't about Stallman being allowed to use words any more than insisting he not rape people is about him not being allowed to have sex.

Re:A Critique of the Open Letter Calling for the Removal of RMS by insert_coin on Thursday April 08, 2021 @05:03AM (#26736624)
If you think you are so in the right at least have the guts to admit what you are demanding others to do instead of using contradicting language to try to weasel your way out of admitting what everyone already knows.

And please do not insult and offend rape victims by claiming not using the words you want is the same as rape.

Re:A Critique of the Open Letter Calling for the Removal of RMS by dpatterbee on Wednesday April 07, 2021 @08:20AM (#26723733)
It blows my mind that you think that people wishing to be referred to in a certain way that has absolutely 0 negative effects on you or anyone else is somehow a bad thing which you need to argue against so much.
Re:A Critique of the Open Letter Calling for the Removal of RMS by insert_coin on Wednesday April 07, 2021 @08:40AM (#26723947)
They can wish it all they want. They cannot force it.

What should blow your mind is people mounting huge campaigns to completely cancel someone and then when unable to really defend their positions having the guts to say "it isn't really an issue, it has 0 impact!"

It either is an issue and worthy of ruining someone's life or it isn't. Either simply "feeling" discriminated against is the bar or it isn't. Some people feel bullied when forced to speak a certain way, shouldn't others also be forced to accommodate their feelings?

You can't have it both ways.

Re:A Critique of the Open Letter Calling for the Removal of RMS by nec4b on Wednesday April 07, 2021 @08:51AM (#26724089)
They are demanding not wishing.
Re:A Critique of the Open Letter Calling for the Removal of RMS by dpatterbee on Wednesday April 07, 2021 @06:44AM (#26722959)
Do you call people by their names? Seems like you're already forced to call people what they want you to. I believe there's a difference between asking people to refer to you by some identifier and whatever nonsense you're equating it to.
Re:A Critique of the Open Letter Calling for the Removal of RMS by insert_coin on Wednesday April 07, 2021 @06:54AM (#26723045)
You are not forced to call anyone anything. You have no right to compel anyone to say anything. You can ask, that's about it. They can say no.
Re:A Critique of the Open Letter Calling for the Removal of RMS by dpatterbee on Wednesday April 07, 2021 @08:17AM (#26723726)
And they can be considered an asshole and asked to not continue their role as a leading representative of a diverse community of people.
Re:A Critique of the Open Letter Calling for the Removal of RMS by insert_coin on Wednesday April 07, 2021 @08:42AM (#26723968)
Of course!

And the people "asking" can also be considered assholes.

Re:A Critique of the Open Letter Calling for the Removal of RMS by gnomewascool on Wednesday April 07, 2021 @06:09AM (#26722679)
RMS's stance is that "they" is not a grammatically valid singular pronoun, so he'll not use it.

If somebody told you that their preferred pronoun was "we", I doubt you'd use it.

> not every transgender person wants to be thrown into an "other" category with their pronouns

RMS's pronoun "perse" is gender-neutral (not non-gender).

The stance is IMO crazy, but he does have a point that using "they" as both singular and plural introduces ambiguity.

Re:A Critique of the Open Letter Calling for the Removal of RMS by dpatterbee on Wednesday April 07, 2021 @06:45AM (#26722982)
It does introduce ambiguity in certain sentences, but pronouns already do that and we don't have much issue using them. The solution is to just not use the pronoun if it's ambiguous, pronouns are just a convenience.