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Re:Google’s copying of the Java SE API was fair use [pdf] by GavinMcG on Monday April 05, 2021 @10:49AM (#26699774)
Why should it have been evaluated first?

I understand the intuition you're getting at: logically, the first question could make the second irrelevant. But if the second question resolves the issue even when the first is construed in favor of the other party, what's the rationale for demanding the court focus on the first question?

Re:Google’s copying of the Java SE API was fair use [pdf] by ghaff on Monday April 05, 2021 @11:09AM (#26700039)
IANAL, but I can imagine something like the following:

A. We decide this is fair use based on the small number of LOC used and call it a day

B. OR we can decide that APIs are not copyrightable even though they're self-evidently creative works because of the importance of interoperability based on something something related to Borland v. Lotus, a case that we couldn't agree on the last time it came up.

Hey folks. Let's do A.

Re:Google’s copying of the Java SE API was fair use [pdf] by Gh0stRAT on Monday April 05, 2021 @12:13PM (#26700842)
While I agree that APIs should not be copyrightable, the Supreme Court has been criticized for "legislating from the bench".

Avoiding the temptation to set bigger and more far-reaching precedents than is strictly necessary for the case at hand avoids giving the impression that the judicial branch is doing the job of the legislative branch.

Re:Google’s copying of the Java SE API was fair use [pdf] by hctaw on Monday April 05, 2021 @12:50PM (#26701400)
This is something I struggle with, personally.

I have fundamental problems with an unelected council that serves for life creating law.

However, we have an extremely inefficient form of Government that doesn't allow for quick adaptation, and legal questions will arise tomorrow that did not occur to legislators today. The courts are supposed to help resolve any ambiguity.

The question over whether or not APIs are copyrightable is, however, not a question of ambiguity. APIs are software (or documentation, or source code, etc), and any category you place them into is copyrightable under the current law. If we don't want APIs to be copyrightable, then they must have explicit exemptions carved out in the law. The courts are bound to consider an API as copyrighted right now, and the only question is whether violating that copyright is fair-use.

I think the Court did the right thing in skirting the question. That's up to legislators, the Court cannot help. We need fundamental reform of IP protections for software anyway.

Re:Google’s copying of the Java SE API was fair use [pdf] by TimTheTinker on Monday April 05, 2021 @01:06PM (#26701634)
> We need fundamental reform of IP protections for software anyway.

That really is the root issue here. So many problems we're seeing (Pai's clownshow in the FCC, SCOTUS legislating from the bench, federal agencies trampling citizens' rights, etc.) stem from the legislative branch abdicating their authority to third parties -- the librarian of Congress, the FCC, SCOTUS, and even (by legal reference) professional organizations and laws in other countries. It's ridiculous.

A first principle of a democratic government is that citizens can soon fire someone whose legislation and/or executive decision they do not like. We would all have voted Pai out if we could have... but he shouldn't have had the power to do what he did in the first place (remove network neutrality rules). Congress gave him that power - which I would argue was an abdication of authority vested in them.

Re:Google’s copying of the Java SE API was fair use [pdf] by akiselev on Monday April 05, 2021 @02:21PM (#26702583)
> Congress gave him that power - which I would argue was an abdication of authority vested in them.

Legislators assigning regulatory power to bureaucratic agencies is one of the cornerstones of modern democracies - it wouldn't work otherwise. Many of our legislators are barely qualified to send their own emails, let alone decide what is a telecom utility or how much ppb in drinking water is safe for a toxic chemical. Assigning that power to regulatory agencies allows experts to decide those issues in a neutral setting.

Pai's FCC aside, that structure prevented significant disruptions in the last four years and our country continues to function despite decades of increased partisanship and deadlock at the highest level.

Re:Google’s copying of the Java SE API was fair use [pdf] by TimTheTinker on Monday April 05, 2021 @02:46PM (#26702914)
> it wouldn't work otherwise.

Agreed that regulatory agencies are indispensable. But their job is to carry out the law, not make the law. Of course, the law has to delegate some decision-making responsibility to them -- the law can't make every decision ahead of time. But (a) the law can codify principles that regulatory agencies must uphold, and (b) lawsuits can be filed when someone disagrees that a principle has been accurately upheld -- the courts can decide.

We as a country ought to be arguing and disagreeing about principles, and the results (decided by legislators who are under the gun of potential non-reelection) ought to be codified as laws. A lack of principle in congress and in law is what really causes this abdication and delegation of authority.

An ideal legal corpus represents (as much as possible) a simply and directly expressed set of principles under which the country operates.

Re:Google’s copying of the Java SE API was fair use [pdf] by gwright on Monday April 05, 2021 @04:55PM (#26704599)
> regulatory agencies allows experts to decide those issues in a neutral setting

It is difficult to talk about "regulations" in the abstract but I would suggest that many regulations aren't about a perfect solution devised by an expert. They are more often about finding a tradeoff, a balance between competing goals. Those sorts of decisions can be informed by "expert" knowledge, but I think it is a mistake to think that domain experts are necessarily best positioned to resolve tradeoffs in public policy.

I'm not arguing against expert knowledge being incorporated into construction of regulations -- just pointing out that expert knowledge may be necessary but not sufficient to finding a workable public policy.

Re:Google’s copying of the Java SE API was fair use [pdf] by vkou on Monday April 05, 2021 @01:29PM (#26701907)
I fear that you will remain disappointed, because no prescriptive specification of law written by legislators can be detailed enough to catch every edge case.

If your democratically elected legislators don't like a bench ruling, they are free to make a new law that specifically overrides that ruling. The legislature is the ultimate source of authority in the land. The courts only have a bit of wiggle room in interpreting unclear statutes.

The system is designed well. Unfortunately, democratically elected legislators at the moment would rather obstruct, wreck, and go on wild-ass conspiracy rants, than legislate.

If that legislature spent half the time it complains about activist judges actually drafting law, it would have nothing to complain about. If you, as a constituent are unhappy about the current state of affairs, vote in legislators who are willing to do their job.

Re:Google’s copying of the Java SE API was fair use [pdf] by sprayk on Monday April 05, 2021 @01:02PM (#26701583)
Slow legislation is a feature rather than a bug. Less opportunity for reactionary laws based on emotion or a collective misunderstanding of events that we later regret. It's not a perfect deterrent, obviously, e.g. the Patriot Act
Re:Google’s copying of the Java SE API was fair use [pdf] by ClumsyPilot on Monday April 05, 2021 @03:10PM (#26703257)
Cipyright law needed reform for like 40 years. Thre is slow, and there is dysfunctional
Re:Google’s copying of the Java SE API was fair use [pdf] by ghaff on Monday April 05, 2021 @05:23PM (#26704906)
However, the main reform that people are asking for is a shortening of copyright terms which really isn't a factor that plays into this case or, for the most part, with computer software generally. One can imagine copyright reform that broadly and explicitly exempts interfaces from at least copyright protection but that has generally not been one of the top issues historically.
Re:Google’s copying of the Java SE API was fair use [pdf] by dragonwriter on Monday April 05, 2021 @08:08PM (#26706335)
Copyright law has received many reforms over the last 40 years. It may not have received the particular reforms you want, but that’s a very different issue.
Re:Google’s copying of the Java SE API was fair use [pdf] by ClumsyPilot on Tuesday April 06, 2021 @06:28AM (#26710213)
It doesnt matter what I want, it has not addressed the issues that need to be adressed, in either way.
Re:Google’s copying of the Java SE API was fair use [pdf] by spacemanmatt on Monday April 05, 2021 @12:51PM (#26701413)
AFAIK, the Court's overt mission is to interpret and regulate the intent of Congress. They literally must legislate from the bench where Congress has left them an obligation to do so. And Congress can legislate when they feel the Court has taken too much liberty with interpretation or regulation.

But I really do think this case falls squarely inside the parameters of "interpretation" as most members would see it.

Re:Google’s copying of the Java SE API was fair use [pdf] by azernik on Monday April 05, 2021 @02:34PM (#26702771)
That is part of the dynamic. More importantly, though, a narrow decision makes a broad decision easier. If some justices think the code isn't copyrightable, they can increase their voting power by agreeing to set a less sweeping precedent that more justices agree with.
Re:Google’s copying of the Java SE API was fair use [pdf] by hluska on Monday April 05, 2021 @03:46PM (#26703695)
With what I know of Amy Coney Barrett, I’m very surprised she had no part in this decision. You did an absolutely wonderful job of explaining her whole feeling on the bench in two paragraphs. Seriously friend, that’s some excellent writing - excellent excellent job!!
Re:Google’s copying of the Java SE API was fair use [pdf] by GavinMcG on Monday April 05, 2021 @03:48PM (#26703722)
The case was argued weeks before Barrett was confirmed to the court.
Re:Google’s copying of the Java SE API was fair use [pdf] by hluska on Monday April 05, 2021 @04:27PM (#26704241)
That’s the perfect explanation!!! :) I’m dumb - thanks so much!!!!
Re:Google’s copying of the Java SE API was fair use [pdf] by thaumasiotes on Monday April 05, 2021 @08:00PM (#26706270)
> Avoiding the temptation to set bigger and more far-reaching precedents than is strictly necessary for the case at hand avoids giving the impression that the judicial branch is doing the job of the legislative branch.

Well, that's the theory.

In fact, they are doing the job of the legislative branch, they can't stop people from noticing this, and sticking to this approach just means they're doing their job badly.

Re:Google’s copying of the Java SE API was fair use [pdf] by dctoedt on Monday April 05, 2021 @04:25PM (#26704195)
> Hey folks. Let's do A.

In an earlier concurring opinion when he was on the D.C. Circuit — i.e., before joining the Supreme Court as Chief Justice of the United States (his official title) — John Roberts referred to "... the cardinal principle of judicial restraint — if it is not necessary to decide more, it is necessary not to decide more ...." [0]

[0] https://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=192785774326304...

Re:Google’s copying of the Java SE API was fair use [pdf] by bcrosby95 on Monday April 05, 2021 @12:50PM (#26701399)
This is what the Supreme Court does in general. They decide on the narrowest of rulings possible.
Re:Google’s copying of the Java SE API was fair use [pdf] by btilly on Monday April 05, 2021 @02:04PM (#26702361)
But if the second question resolves the issue even when the first is construed in favor of the other party, what's the rationale for demanding the court focus on the first question?

The main influence of the Supreme Court is in setting precedent. In the absence of a ruling from the Supreme Court, the previous ruling from the Court of Appeals for the Federal Circuit is binding precedent on the whole country that APIs are copyrightable. That means that the most important precedents set in this case are still an issue for the software industry.

Re:Google’s copying of the Java SE API was fair use [pdf] by azernik on Monday April 05, 2021 @02:31PM (#26702736)
> In the absence of a ruling from the Supreme Court, the previous ruling from the Court of Appeals for the Federal Circuit is binding precedent on the whole country that APIs are copyrightable.

This is not true - other circuit courts are free to set their own, conflicting precedent. Each circuit's decisions are binding only on its own judges, and suggestive but not binding on other circuits.

Circuits deciding differently (a "circuit split") is uncommon, and considered urgent grounds for the Supreme Court to take up a test case to resolve the ambiguity; but it's not considered a "breaking" of precedent by either circuit, just a difference of interpretation for the Supreme Court to resolve

Re:Google’s copying of the Java SE API was fair use [pdf] by btilly on Monday April 05, 2021 @02:41PM (#26702854)
For most circuits what you say would be true. But the Court of Appeals for the Federal Circuit is special. As http://www.cafc.uscourts.gov/the-court/court-jurisdiction says, their jurisdiction is national and determined by subject matter.

That said I do not actually know whether they would be binding on another circuit court. But they are definitely binding on all federal courts lower than that.

However that question is sort of moot. It is extremely easy for the entity filing the case for infringement to include something about patent or trademark in the suit, which guarantees that you wind up in the Court of Appeals for the Federal Circuit. Where that ruling is binding.

Re:Google’s copying of the Java SE API was fair use [pdf] by dragonwriter on Tuesday April 06, 2021 @09:40PM (#26719612)
> their jurisdiction is national and determined by subject matter.

Copyright is not part of their subject matter jurisdiction.

> However that question is sort of moot. It is extremely easy for the entity filing the case for infringement to include something about patent or trademark in the suit, which guarantees that you wind up in the Court of Appeals for the Federal Circuit. Where that ruling is binding.

It’s not, though; outside of its own subject matter jurisdiction, CAFC is bound by the law of the Circuit to which the trial court belongs, which it, in theory, merely applies. Another case coming up through the Northern District of California like Oracle v. Google did would be governed vy Ninth Circuit, not Federal Circuit, copyright precedent even if heard in the Federal Circuit because of other issues in the case.

Re:Google’s copying of the Java SE API was fair use [pdf] by dragonwriter on Monday April 05, 2021 @04:40PM (#26704404)
> the previous ruling from the Court of Appeals for the Federal Circuit is binding precedent on the whole country that APIs are copyrightable.

No, its not.

The CAFC’s interpretation of Ninth Amendment case law on copyrightability in this case (before and after the Supreme Court sidestepped it) is binding on no one except future courts hearing cases on issues and between parties so closely related to those in Oracle v. Google that res judicata rather than rules of precedent is the deciding factor