News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:LulzSec: Why we do what we do by scythe on Friday June 17, 2011 @11:22AM (#2665832)
>People who can make things work better within this rectangle have power over others; the whitehats who charge $10,000 for something we could teach you how to do over the course of a weekend, providing you aren't mentally disabled.

This is a common complaint among blackhats: they see whitehats as being in the game for the money and taking advantage of the unenlightened as much as they [the blackhats] themselves do.

I don't really know what to make of it.

Re:LulzSec: Why we do what we do by huckfinnaafb on Friday June 17, 2011 @11:34AM (#2665880)
Blackhats can cost organizations way more than whitehats would charge in operating costs, personal identity theft, and reputation.

Whitehats are only taking advantage of the unenlightened as much as a mechanic is taking advantage of someone who doesn't know anything about cars - they provide experience and expertise and offer a service for a high price - at least, a higher price than if the client knew how to fix it themselves.

Re:LulzSec: Why we do what we do by webXL on Friday June 17, 2011 @12:12PM (#2666039)
I love it when the economically illiterate attack others for "price gouging" as if the third party doesn't have a choice in the matter or they aren't "unenlightened" enough to properly appraise the value of what they are buying.

How do I know that my jeweler isn't gouging me on my fiancee's 2 caret diamond ring? Because I know that there's a fixed quantity of available diamonds, and almost everyone would buy them at a given price. And if I need to verify that, I can go to the jeweler down the street. Everyone would buy security consulting at a given price, but that quantity is even more limited than 2 caret diamonds.

Why is my house worth a third less than what it was 3 years ago? Because there's at least a third fewer potential buyers than there was when I bought it. I wasn't "price gouged" or fooled in either instance.

Whitehats specialize in security and it frees up our time to specialize and produce excess value for others. It's not a conspiracy. If Steve Jobs and LeBron James aren't tricking people into giving them money, neither are whitehats. It's the free market and, believe it or not, it produces wealth.

Re:LulzSec: Why we do what we do by beedogs on Friday June 17, 2011 @01:22PM (#2666305)
Funny that you use diamonds as an example, when the diamond market is one of the most rigged institutions on the planet.

Your jeweler is always gouging you when you buy diamonds.

Re:LulzSec: Why we do what we do by webXL on Friday June 17, 2011 @01:40PM (#2666378)
Just because a cartel exists somewhere in the supply chain doesn't mean I have to participate in the transaction or my perceived value of it is artificially inflated. The two caret ring was just hypothetical, but there are plenty men who value those rings more than the asking price, and their wives appreciate that. (at least the sensible ones do)
Re:LulzSec: Why we do what we do by cynest on Friday June 17, 2011 @01:29PM (#2666341)
It's less the jeweler and more his suppliers.
Re:LulzSec: Why we do what we do by seabee on Friday June 17, 2011 @12:21PM (#2666081)
Also foolish to forget that time is money, you pay knowledge workers for the time they spent studying. You too can "save" $10,000 by doing security yourself, but only if you spend several years training and understanding the domain.
Re:LulzSec: Why we do what we do by marshray on Friday June 17, 2011 @08:35PM (#2667601)
Where can one buy security for $10,000 anyway? I'm not mentally disabled and have spent many weekends learning about info security. What are they even talking about?
Re:LulzSec: Why we do what we do by scythe on Friday June 17, 2011 @12:24PM (#2666091)
>Because I know that there's a fixed quantity of available diamonds

Meanwhile...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemical_vapor_deposition_of_di...

Re:LulzSec: Why we do what we do by Wilduck on Friday June 17, 2011 @01:21PM (#2666301)
Sure, but what blackhats often claim is that even if a company pays whitehats large sums of money, it is often fairly easy for the blackhats to do just as much damage as they could before.
Re:LulzSec: Why we do what we do by alexophile on Friday June 17, 2011 @11:50AM (#2665944)
That false comparison has always bothered me. Preying on the weak for fun instead of profit doesn't make you right, it makes you sound like a sociopath.
Re:LulzSec: Why we do what we do by nihilocrat on Friday June 17, 2011 @12:03PM (#2666005)
I think everything else said in the post proves they are sociopaths. They don't seem to place value in "peons", "lulz lizards", or really any kind of human beings.
Re:LulzSec: Why we do what we do by dclowd9901 on Friday June 17, 2011 @12:19PM (#2666072)
It's always been posited that, at some point, the Internet would create a generation of pseudo-sociopaths who are so disconnected from fellow human beings, they lack empathy, much the same as someone with the clinical diagnosis.

Mayhap that time has arrived.

Re:LulzSec: Why we do what we do by moxiemk1 on Friday June 17, 2011 @12:46PM (#2666181)
Just like with violent video games, the internet doesn't make people feel disconnected, or turn them into sociopaths.

It enables people who would rather be disconnected to disconnect themselves, and gives sociopaths the ability to do far more.

The internet doesn't create people without empathy, it reveals that deep down, a lot of humanity didn't have it to begin with. The way society is starting to structure itself, though, lets that shine through more clearly.

Re:LulzSec: Why we do what we do by scythe on Friday June 17, 2011 @02:30PM (#2666547)
>The internet doesn't create people without empathy, it reveals that deep down, a lot of humanity didn't have it to begin with. The way society is starting to structure itself, though, lets that shine through more clearly.

A lot? I doubt LulzSec is more than five people. For every pathological script-kiddie there are ten Free Software hackers. The Internet has revealed new ways for people to be destructive, but it has also revealed more ways that they can be constructive.

Compare:

http://www.quantcast.com/github.com

http://www.quantcast.com/4chan.org

Re:LulzSec: Why we do what we do by Will_Price on Friday June 17, 2011 @05:59PM (#2667247)
Excellent post scythe, I fully agree with you. The comparison of numbers between gthub and 4chan is a nice indicator that there are more than these sociopaths, When you have lulzsec waving their arms in front of the internet it's sometimes easy to forget they're are millions of great people producing software, for others, for the betterment of humanity.
Re:LulzSec: Why we do what we do by 9999 on Friday June 17, 2011 @07:44PM (#2667505)
Not everyone on 4chan is a sociopath. Even on /b/, not everyone is a sociopath.
Re:LulzSec: Why we do what we do by scythe on Friday June 17, 2011 @08:34PM (#2667597)
Of course not, just like not every project on github is open source. It just seemed like a nice glance at the ways people choose to spend time online.

I doubt society was ever much more virtuous than it is today, but we do hear about the problems more. There is the orthogonal and much more serious issue that many more people today feel unfulfilled in their lives than they did before, but I can't even begin to address that -- read Infinite Jest by David Foster Wallace if that interests or concerns you.

Re:LulzSec: Why we do what we do by yters on Friday June 17, 2011 @02:00PM (#2666453)
Just like advertisements don't convince people to buy stuff.
Re:LulzSec: Why we do what we do by sradnidge on Friday June 17, 2011 @01:59PM (#2666447)
Well said.
Re:LulzSec: Why we do what we do by ericmoritz on Friday June 17, 2011 @05:16PM (#2667113)
It's easy to be a sociopath on the Internet where humanity is lost.
Re:LulzSec: Why we do what we do by SaintMax on Friday June 17, 2011 @02:29PM (#2666546)
Having no moral doesn't make you a sociopath.
Re:LulzSec: Why we do what we do by kenjackson on Friday June 17, 2011 @02:53PM (#2666629)
That's almost the textbook definition:

a person, as a psychopathic personality, whose behavior is antisocial and who lacks a sense of moral responsibility or social conscience.

Re:LulzSec: Why we do what we do by seats on Friday June 17, 2011 @11:59AM (#2665988)
Preying on the weak for fun

Preying on the weak for profit

They both kind of have a sociopath sound to them

Re:LulzSec: Why we do what we do by SonicSoul on Monday June 20, 2011 @11:02AM (#2674428)
I suppose this is a matter of phrasing.

Do car mechanics pray on weak for profit because not everyone learned how to fix their car? They trust mechanics because they devoted many years of their life at becoming good at what they do. Does that make them sociopaths? logic fail.

You could also say that white hat hackers provide a service of security for the benefit of those that spend their time creating other things.

Re:LulzSec: Why we do what we do by bxr on Friday June 17, 2011 @12:16PM (#2666055)
But, only one of them is the foundation of our society.
Re:LulzSec: Why we do what we do by burgerbrain on Friday June 17, 2011 @01:32PM (#2666350)
I'm not sure which one you think it is, but I sure hope it's the one that does it for fun.

A society driven by preying on the weak for profit is far more distressing.

Re:LulzSec: Why we do what we do by JoshCole on Friday June 17, 2011 @03:46PM (#2666816)
You guys do realize that the bit about preying on the weak for profit is just a bit of rhetoric? It isn't really true.

The person who is weak in this case is a customer. This customer is lacking in skills related to computer security. The person who is preying on the weak is someone who invested time into learning about the skills that the customer does not know. Let's say this customer was a farmer. He is using the money he too got from preying on the weak non-farmers to purchase protection.

In the case of preying on the weak for fun we also have some things being hidden behind the words. For example, fun in this case means stealing identities, trying to ruin relationships, and sending dildos to innocents.

It's cool though for the author because by having things written in these terms its easy for people to talk past each other. They don't realize the context in which he has placed the words in the article. When other people see the terms its easy to think that maybe "preying on the weak for profit" is referring to blackhats instead of capitalism.

Another thing worth pointing out is that the person who is volunteering to give away the information for free is actually someone who also put in a lot of time to learn all the things that the customer didn't know. So when he says "I could teach it to him quickly" he is really saying "I will provide the same service in exchange for you're weekend." The thing is that when these two "companies" compete only the one charging money is going to stay afloat. So the dildo sending altruist who wants fun to be the basis of society goes back to sending dildos while the guy who charged the money actually does the job.

Re:LulzSec: Why we do what we do by bethling on Friday June 17, 2011 @01:51PM (#2666420)
As sad as it sounds, I really think it's preying on the weak for profit. So much of society/economy/whatever very much depends on taking advantage of those who are don't have much other choice in the matter.

I don't think it's as visible to us as it used to be, but I think it's still very much there.

Re:LulzSec: Why we do what we do by CWuestefeld on Friday June 17, 2011 @04:11PM (#2666892)
See: "Invisible Hand"

In economics, the invisible hand, also known as invisible hand of the market, is the term economists use to describe the self-regulating nature of the marketplace. This is a metaphor first coined by the economist Adam Smith in The Theory of Moral Sentiments... For Smith, the invisible hand was created by the conjunction of the forces of self-interest, competition, and supply and demand, which he noted as being capable of allocating resources in society.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invisible_hand

Re:LulzSec: Why we do what we do by yters on Friday June 17, 2011 @02:02PM (#2666456)
You mean the foundation of Taliban and Mafia society. You know, it is quite possible to make money by being good. It just doesn't grab headlines as effectively.
Re:LulzSec: Why we do what we do by jarek on Friday June 17, 2011 @02:45PM (#2666606)
And quite trivial to make more money preying on the weak than being good.
Re:LulzSec: Why we do what we do by yters on Friday June 17, 2011 @06:42PM (#2667365)
At least in the short term. But, that's definitely not the foundation for any functional society.
Re:LulzSec: Why we do what we do by danielharan on Friday June 17, 2011 @01:17PM (#2666281)
Which one?
Re:LulzSec: Why we do what we do by dodo53 on Friday June 17, 2011 @12:03PM (#2666006)
It's a bit of a silly way to respond though - they could either be whitehats themselves and charge a more reasonable amount; or charge the same amount and donate whatever they think is reasonable to education campaigns or whatever.
Re:LulzSec: Why we do what we do by JoshCole on Friday June 17, 2011 @03:57PM (#2666857)
My guess is rationalization. They are lieing to themselves to justify their actions. I've read that even serial-killers think they are doing good. I don't see why blackhats would be much different.
Re:LulzSec: Why we do what we do by jrwoodruff on Friday June 17, 2011 @05:01PM (#2667059)
What corporation would ever trust a 'free' security consultant?