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Re:A billion for every chip-maker who 'makes in India,' sour... by runawaybottle on Wednesday March 31, 2021 @10:33PM (#26656019)
India has previously tried to woo semiconductor players but firms were deterred by India's wobbly infrastructure, unstable power supply, bureaucracy and poor planning.

India must have one world class city, right? If they want to compete with China, they need to kind of do something China is willing to do. Tear down an existing city and just rebuild it perfectly with infrastructure and city planning.

Re:A billion for every chip-maker who 'makes in India,' sour... by cocoland2 on Wednesday March 31, 2021 @10:58PM (#26656149)
India is not an Autocracy where a few million can be automagically teleported to another city where the PB has decided to build a factory. Do not think this is something that will happen in a few thousand years in India , for starters many consider a place of residence to be sacred and passed on from generations (slowly changing) and would never allow something like this to happen
Re:A billion for every chip-maker who 'makes in India,' sour... by vmception on Wednesday March 31, 2021 @11:10PM (#26656229)
My only rebuttal to this, and I don't know much about it and am only an outside observer from America, is that India has amended its constitution 104 times since 1951.

So from my perspective, anything can happen. Obviously if certain topics just don't have consensus due to the culture, then it won't, but that's my observation.

Re:A billion for every chip-maker who 'makes in India,' sour... by blueblisters on Thursday April 01, 2021 @02:59AM (#26657384)
> is that India has amended its constitution 104 times since 1951. So from my perspective, anything can happen.

This is unfortunately very true. India's states derive power from the Union, and not the other way round. And the dominance of a single political party at the federal and state level during certain phases has made it relatively easy to subvert and amend democratic safeguards in the constitution.

For those curious, India's first amendment to the constitution allowed legislators to make "reasonable" restrictions on free speech after some sections of the media started criticising the newly elected government of Jawaharlal Nehru, India's first Prime Minister [1].

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Amendment_of_the_Constit...

Re:A billion for every chip-maker who 'makes in India,' sour... by occamschainsaw on Wednesday March 31, 2021 @11:47PM (#26656483)
Slightly off the topic, but from my limited knowledge, I think that amending the constitution is not as big a deal in parliamentary democracies as it is in the US. The UK doesn’t even have a codified constitution[1]. These living constitutions are much more flexible.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_of_the_United_Kin...

Re:A billion for every chip-maker who 'makes in India,' sour... by indianpers on Wednesday March 31, 2021 @11:25PM (#26656332)
I seriously doubt that .. Land and house are "sacred" in India .. It is next to Gods in a way .. People worship their houses , to bring such a change is near to impossible
Re:A billion for every chip-maker who 'makes in India,' sour... by cocoland2 on Wednesday March 31, 2021 @11:17PM (#26656273)
Sure thing , can happen (from federal or state). We had a communist reform in my state where implementation of the land act transferred land rights to the tillers in the 50's. So it is possible with an act of parliament or state law. Is that going to be simple to enact such a thing , absolutely doubt it.
Re:A billion for every chip-maker who 'makes in India,' sour... by rossng on Wednesday March 31, 2021 @11:41PM (#26656438)
History has shown us that mass rebuilding of cities is a terrible idea.

Strong cities develop organically. Slow evolution of the built environment has a kind of 'antifragile' nature. It prevents you from accidentally doing too much of the wrong thing at the same time, and ensures you are building things that people actually want.

Just look at some of the awful mistakes made by planners in the 20th century.

* Entire neighbourhoods were bulldozed in many American cities to make way for huge road infrastructure projects. These projects mainly displaced socioeconomically disadvantaged people and ethnic minorities, with enormous and long-lasting impacts. Decades later, it is broadly acknowledged that massive road infrastructure is toxic to cities. It causes pollution, is enormously expensive to maintain and destroys the character of a city.

* Many countries built lots of huge Le Corbusier-inspired residential towers. Since then, we have learned that the 'towers in a park' ideal is incredibly destructive to communities and the urban fabric of cities. But the allure of big towers in 3D renders is hard to overcome - China went ahead and built enormous numbers of them in the last 30 years, even though urban planners worldwide already knew how bad they were.

* We covered the countryside in endless sprawl. Houses were built around the idea that everyone must own a car and drive everywhere. Communities are too sparse to support natural urban life - shops, cafes, community spaces and so on. Real, ecologically diverse nature was razed in favour of an endless grassy monoculture.

I believe we should have some humility and stop trying to revolutionise the world's cities, thinking that we know best. Instead, we should stick to improvements that we know definitely work. Transit-oriented development. Dense, walkable neighbourhoods. Quality green space for all. Elimination of private cars from city centres. Reliable electricity and clean water. District heating. Sustainable urban drainage. Strong environmental protection for bodies of water. And so on.

Re:A billion for every chip-maker who 'makes in India,' sour... by dirtyid on Thursday April 01, 2021 @04:01PM (#26665325)
Corbusier contemporary / radiant cities was based around automobile scale.

Chinese super/megablock urbanism connects to sufficient public transit and work mostly as planned. Add residence community governance layer (coordination mechanism for managing Wuhan covid lockdown) and you have a fairly functional setup, good civic participation especially in newer blocks with more mix-use at ground floors. It's a working urban model for megacities for massive countries, and one that would apply particularly well with India's density, flat terrain, assuming India can overcome infrastructure / transit deficit. Less proven strategies being explored now are managing internal migration and urbanization to growing tier2/3 cities to balance development.

But for a developing country with poor infra/housing stock, it might be developmentally prudent to just start spamming high density urbanism to get the ball rolling. There's enough cheap excess labour in India for generations to fix things up after the fact. But IMO India's problem is she's not ready to urbanize when huge % of population are farmers. Caste system fucked development priorities, too much focus on information services that employs the privileged few versus low end manufacturing opportunities that employs the masses. $2000 per capita and lack of development causes 700,000 infant mortalities per year, India needs coal plants and factories to alleviate poverty before it can afford sustainable cities. At least transition enough farmers to factory work to reduce stubble burning and justify the excess pollution.

Re:A billion for every chip-maker who 'makes in India,' sour... by baybal2 on Thursday April 01, 2021 @05:33AM (#26658329)
> * Many countries built lots of huge Le Corbusier-inspired residential towers. Since then, we have learned that the 'towers in a park' ideal is incredibly destructive to communities and the urban fabric of cities. But the allure of big towers in 3D renders is hard to overcome - China went ahead and built enormous numbers of them in the last 30 years, even though urban planners worldwide already knew how bad they were.

I'd say it worked well, and is not anything "unsustainable." Tell how exactly it is "wrong"

Re:A billion for every chip-maker who 'makes in India,' sour... by rossng on Thursday April 01, 2021 @01:13PM (#26663357)
Sure, I can at least give you my opinion.

* They eliminate a lot of street life. Towers almost always have completely dead frontages at ground level - and they are unlikely to be directly adjacent to a real street. You will be driving to a mall - private space that has none of the democratic nature of a public street.

* They often reduce the connection between neighbours. Meeting someone in a lift or a corridor isn't the same as stopping to talk to someone in the street.

* The 'parks' are normally poor quality. Humans tend to feel more comfortable in enclosed spaces[1], whereas the parks are open fields that feel overshadowed by the large towers.

* The parks often feel unsafe too. A significant reason for this is that towers eliminate most of the 'eyes on the street'. You are likely to feel much safer walking past a row of terraced houses than between tower blocks at night.

* The buildings are often poorly built/maintained and become eyesores.

* They are often built in conjunction with wide roads and excessive parking.

Most countries have a good example of how housing towers go wrong. France has its Grands Ensembles - many of which are really cool buildings but which have not aged well[2]. Glasgow is now demolishing many of its towers[3]. Here's an in-depth report from Create Streets, a social enterprise that studies this kind of thing in the UK[4].

For balance, there is a more positive example in Vienna's social housing[5].

[1] https://www.canr.msu.edu/news/getting_enclosure_right_creati... [2] https://favelissues.com/2018/01/22/les-grands-ensembles-a-so... [3] https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2015/apr/22/disappearing-... [4] https://policyexchange.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/cre... [5] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d6DBKoWbtjE

Re:A billion for every chip-maker who 'makes in India,' sour... by triceratops on Thursday April 01, 2021 @12:59PM (#26663132)
Residential towers are bad but so is sprawl? For cities with large populations, is there a third way?
Re:A billion for every chip-maker who 'makes in India,' sour... by rossng on Thursday April 01, 2021 @01:22PM (#26663490)
Yes, and it's often referred to as 'gentle density'.

The idea is to build relatively dense housing, but at a human scale - mostly 3-5 storeys. Combined with narrow streets that support walking and cycling, this creates enough density to support a 'real' city centre with shops, restaurants, offices and so on.

I think these videos convey the idea well:

* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bnKIVX968PQ

* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CCOdQsZa15o

Of course, this is not to say that you _can't_ build other kinds of housing. But many cities are badly balanced.

Re:A billion for every chip-maker who 'makes in India,' sour... by imtringued on Thursday April 01, 2021 @07:15AM (#26658960)
Incremental growth is basically the motto of strongtowns. Big plans fail big.
Re:A billion for every chip-maker who 'makes in India,' sour... by paxys on Wednesday March 31, 2021 @11:03PM (#26656177)
Why do you need to tear down a city to build another one? There are already numerous special economic zones across the country (especially at/near ports) that have seen great success when it comes to more traditional manufacturing. The problem with semiconductors is they need very specialized equipment, talent, materials and overall infrastructure that is just not available in India. So "unstable power supply" is a very simplified (and incorrect) argument.
Re:A billion for every chip-maker who 'makes in India,' sour... by runawaybottle on Wednesday March 31, 2021 @11:07PM (#26656205)
Because I doubt the semiconductor industry is the only industry complaining about this. Tourism? How about the actual citizens? Shipping and transportation? Talent in software that just want nothing more than to leave the country when they get a chance?

Rebuilding is important because the major population centers have already been defined. Otherwise you’d need an exodus every time a new city is built.

Re:A billion for every chip-maker who 'makes in India,' sour... by paxys on Wednesday March 31, 2021 @11:10PM (#26656236)
What does any of that have to do with semiconductor manufacturing? You can have the best tourism, quality of life and everything else, and still not be able to build stuff domestically. Look at the USA, for example.
Re:A billion for every chip-maker who 'makes in India,' sour... by imtringued on Thursday April 01, 2021 @07:13AM (#26658944)
The USA is the victim of having a reserve currency though. It's simply not economically viable to export products from a nation when every other nation wants to dump their products into that nation.
Re:A billion for every chip-maker who 'makes in India,' sour... by perryizgr8 on Wednesday March 31, 2021 @10:54PM (#26656126)
> Tear down an existing city

This is practically impossible in a democracy like India. Tearing down a city and rebuilding it will take longer than the term of any elected representative/official. The displaced people will vote him out before the plan comes to fruition.

The only way forward for us is to do things gradually. Every step must preserve citizens' liberty and rights, and remove government regulations so the people can create wealth.

Re:A billion for every chip-maker who 'makes in India,' sour... by runawaybottle on Wednesday March 31, 2021 @10:57PM (#26656143)
If we had to play this thought experiment out, what cities could be rebuilt incrementally (half of it first)? Obviously the major ones would not be a good candidate. There must be one.

If infrastructure is the problem then you must at some point face the music and pay the infrastructure debt. Otherwise you are basically not serious about moving forward. If one city gets rebuilt and becomes an economic magnet, then that should provide enough political/social capital to roll out more new cities.

Re:A billion for every chip-maker who 'makes in India,' sour... by perryizgr8 on Wednesday March 31, 2021 @11:19PM (#26656284)
> There must be one.

I think tier 2 cities like Pune and Bangalore are good candidates. They are both expanding like crazy. It will be easy (not really, but easier) to build out the new developments with next-gen infrastructure. Once the new areas are built up and show their superiority over a few years, the older ones will be upgraded due to public pressure.

Re:A billion for every chip-maker who 'makes in India,' sour... by kamaal on Wednesday March 31, 2021 @11:56PM (#26656537)
As some one born and raised in Bangalore, These kind of projections have been done for long. They don't happen, and there's lots of reasons for that.

For starters I honestly believe to have genuine upgrade of infrastructure and living standards, you need to increase people's income levels. While there's steady upwards income mobility in Bangalore, it's still no where near to cause leap frog progress.

The remainder of reasons go beyond the scope of discussion of a small HN comment. They have lots to do with insane levels of corruption, and socio-economic attitudes of people. Enough money already exists, is sanctioned and spent to leap frog infrastructure to DisneyLand levels. But nearly negligible actually gets spent, needless to say the dishonesty in quality of work done.

Beyond this we just need to acknowledge nearly everyone here(including the common man walking on the street) is corrupt and just wants to loot and scoot at the expense of destroying things for everyone.

The other part just continues. Bangalore is not even a city, its really more like a mix of at-least 4 districts, gradually absorbed in to the original 'Bangalore' city. People will keep coming into the city, and jobs keep arriving. Since the already dismal state of spending, and progress. No new cities can be built in other places, so people continue to arrive. Real estate prices go up, there is no where near Sanitation infrastructure, or Electricity or even roads. But investors keep buying out lands a decade in advance. And people with no discipline or inclination to play this game just have to pay up high rents or pay 2 - 5 times the cost of a home. All this for access to schools, hospitals, career etc.

Re:A billion for every chip-maker who 'makes in India,' sour... by tln750 on Thursday April 01, 2021 @12:39AM (#26656736)
Indeed. I think a massive social upheaval needs to happen here in India - and I honestly don't know if it will ever happen. Tossing around numbers in the range of billions and trillions is kinda useless if every time I venture out of my house, I see a great multitude of people spitting everywhere, throwing garbage everywhere, urinating everywhere. Money and education seems to make no difference as I see rich people drive fancy cars and indulge in the filthiest of habits. The abysmal quality of life for the average person is the main reason for brain drain. Moving to any western country will bring about a stratospheric increase in quality of life, freedom of thought and expression and general peace of mind resulting from the massive reduction in corruption regarding daily life.
Re:A billion for every chip-maker who 'makes in India,' sour... by perryizgr8 on Thursday April 01, 2021 @12:26AM (#26656683)
> nearly everyone here(including the common man walking on the street) is corrupt and just wants to loot and scoot at the expense of destroying things for everyone

I agree with most of your comment, but I refuse to believe this is true. Almost everyone I have personally met in the city (from the auto drivers to shopkeepers to policemen to businessmen) was well-meaning and well-behaved, with an intelligent, nuanced outlook and understanding of common problems we all face.

The problems in our society are systemic, not because "people are bad". People are (in general) good and law abiding.

For example, a common conundrum I've heard about is that in any restaurant that serves alcohol, the customs/excise dept requires there to be only one exit/entry. However, fire safety code calls for multiple exits. So what is the restaurant owner to do?? He has to bribe the safety inspector, or the customs inspector, or more commonly both. The owner is not a bad, corrupt person. The inspectors are not bad, corrupt persons. The people who drafted the various codes did not draft them with an aim to encourage corruption. But combined together, all this causes the problems we see.

Re:A billion for every chip-maker who 'makes in India,' sour... by kamaal on Thursday April 01, 2021 @12:47AM (#26656765)
I'm glad you had good experience in our city. But its always a little entertaining to hear naive job tourists describing the city this way. Devil is always in details.

>>The problems in our society are systemic, not because "people are bad". People are (in general) good and law abiding.

No. Actually people are bad. Parents line up their kids for civil services exam cram schools, because civil services have ...err... bribe income potential

You know people are genuinely evil when they want their kids to grow up and become corrupt, cheat and steal.

Basically people don't want their kids to be pick pockets in a bus. They want them to dress up well, sit on a table and pick pockets in a sub registrar office or while approving a road tarring contract.

But they aspire their kids to become thieves nevertheless.

Re:A billion for every chip-maker who 'makes in India,' sour... by astatine on Thursday April 01, 2021 @01:57AM (#26657076)
I thought I was cynical about the city, but your comment leaves my dull-grey feeling positively bright and sunny. Most people in the city, and indeed across the country or the world for that matter, want a decent life for themselves. At least in Bangalore, government jobs are not the best option for that. Economics dictates that one needs to go very high up in the government service to out-earn a regular, private-sector job. Since most people realize they will not make it that far, it is far easy to get a better life here and now by taking a private sector job - or even be a new-gen gig worker. I do not actually see everyone wanting themselves - or their kids - to just become corrupt babus.
Re:A billion for every chip-maker who 'makes in India,' sour... by jangid on Thursday April 01, 2021 @12:49PM (#26662959)
I would like this to put statistically. Out of 40 students in my class (1990s), no one aspired to be an IAS or IPS. There could be two reasons. (1) They didn't want to be corrupt, OR (2) They might be thinking it is beyond their intellectual reach.

Further, I was brought up in a public sector township. All the families were having one Govt job. Still only a few (1 or 2) wanted to join a govt service.

I don't want to generalize anything. Because the sample set is too small. But just want to bring a perspective. If you have seen something like 15 out of 40 wanting to become an IAS officer just to get bribed then please put the figures. This is specifically for @Kamaal.

Re:A billion for every chip-maker who 'makes in India,' sour... by baybal2 on Thursday April 01, 2021 @05:38AM (#26658356)
Unfortunately, but Kamaal is right.

It is very common all around the world, and especially worst part of it for robber dynasties of civil officials to exists. Even rather bad places, people don't realize how shockingly common it is.

It is exceptionally hard to root out once you got few generations of those corrupt babus in power.

Very common too in Russia, where a KGB official comes to a high school to recruit kids into their "academy," and openly state the income potentials from bribes, and that with full knowledge of parents, with some even facilitating that... That's even more common with all kinds of "elite education" facilities there, whose only point is to be a gatekeepers to recruitment into government jobs. Call it a modern caste system.

Busting it means busting a double digit percentage of population who participated in such system.

Re:A billion for every chip-maker who 'makes in India,' sour... by imtringued on Thursday April 01, 2021 @07:19AM (#26658983)
I have this simple mindset, if you want to succeed then start with world domination plans and fail somewhere in the middle. India hasn't gotten the memo yet, they are trying to dominate their own nation instead.
Re:A billion for every chip-maker who 'makes in India,' sour... by klyrs on Wednesday March 31, 2021 @11:09PM (#26656212)
Let's do LA first, it's atrociously inefficient
Re:A billion for every chip-maker who 'makes in India,' sour... by imtringued on Thursday April 01, 2021 @07:16AM (#26658971)
The ones in power like it that way. With India at least you have the pretense that it is a developing country.
Re:A billion for every chip-maker who 'makes in India,' sour... by markdown on Wednesday March 31, 2021 @11:09PM (#26656219)
> Tear down an existing city and just rebuild it perfectly with infrastructure and city planning.

Can you imagine tearing down Detroit and rebuilding it from scratch? What about Seattle?

Impossible, isn't it?

India is even more democratic than USA, so it's never going to happen.

Re:A billion for every chip-maker who 'makes in India,' sour... by erklik on Wednesday March 31, 2021 @11:19PM (#26656291)
> India is even more democratic than USA, so it's never going to happen.

Not according to these folks. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index

USA is 25, India is 53.

Re:A billion for every chip-maker who 'makes in India,' sour... by markdown on Thursday April 01, 2021 @03:35AM (#26657598)
Look at their methodology. They don't take into account the role of money in politics. Bribery of govt officials and politicians is legal in the US (they call it lobbying) so only the rich get to control politicians and their policies. Further, massive media conglomerates controlled by billionaires have an outsized influence on govt policy.

As such, while the US has the veneer of being democratic, it really isn't.

And I haven't even gotten into gerrymandering, which makes a complete mockery of democracy.

Re:A billion for every chip-maker who 'makes in India,' sour... by triceratops on Thursday April 01, 2021 @01:01PM (#26663161)
What makes you think bribes don't exist in India? They have lobbying too, and illegal bribes are also all too common.[1]

1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index

Re:A billion for every chip-maker who 'makes in India,' sour... by triceratops on Thursday April 01, 2021 @12:58PM (#26663119)
> Tear down an existing city and just rebuild it perfectly with infrastructure and city planning.

Lol what? We warn against big-bang software rewrites because shit always goes wrong. But you're confident rebuilding a city perfectly is no big deal?