News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time by whiddershins on Monday March 29, 2021 @09:44AM (#26621417)
In my opinion the main problem for religion right now is the failure to explain their arguments at the highest intellectual level, publicly, consistently.

Once I was exposed to better theology and philosophy of Christianity I was blown away. Edward Feser’s ‘The Last Superstition’ helped open this up.

I have no idea why the level of discourse is on average so primitive, I think church leaders have been systematically underestimating the populace.

Re:Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time by christiansakai on Monday March 29, 2021 @09:57AM (#26621610)
I thought I knew what Christianity was, growing up in church. After I attended a theological seminary, I realized I knew nothing. Also I stopped debating religion with people online because I realized majority of religion debates are extremely shallow, yes even those with popular sciences like Richard Dawkins are shallow.

On the other hand, being just a regular member of my church, I also don't want to bring my background when I talk with my church community. Majority of people don't have the education that I had, and to explain half-assedly will just confuse them more.

Re:Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time by phd514 on Monday March 29, 2021 @12:13PM (#26624014)
I've come to a similar place after doing graduate work in Christian theology. The theology, philosophy, and literature of the Bible is the most-studied of any book in the last two millennia and pretty much any question or objection that can be raised about it has been addressed by some of the greatest minds in history. You might not find their conclusions satisfactory, but a serious criticism of Christianity must at least acknowledge and engage with that work.
Re:Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time by christiansakai on Monday March 29, 2021 @04:11PM (#26627540)
Pretty much. 100%
Re:Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time by shireboy on Monday March 29, 2021 @10:08AM (#26621791)
I haven't read Feser, but I do agree there is a huge gap between, say, the theology and level of discourse of C.S.Lewis and Tolkein and popular megachurch pastors. Culturally it's interesting to me - all but the most die-hard atheist will likely see some value and truth in Tolkein's work even if they disagree with his theology and choice of church. They may not agree, but would respect him. Where are today's Inklings?
Re:Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time by luxuryballs on Monday March 29, 2021 @11:28AM (#26623203)
Speaking of CS Lewis, everyone should read his cosmic trilogy. It’s so astounding that I’m surprised it didn’t get the attention that the Narnia books did, and the third book is on par with 1984 and Brave New World, written as a modern fairy tale yet also as a sci-fi in the tradition of HG Wells.

It’s such a good series and probably paints a better understanding of what a fallen world means and what a proper relationship with God is like, yet using sci-fi literalism instead of religious dogma.

Re:Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time by shireboy on Monday March 29, 2021 @12:38PM (#26624427)
Yes! Some of my favorite, and definitely less well known than Narnia.
Re:Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time by __aintit__ on Monday March 29, 2021 @10:23AM (#26622046)
>Where are today's Inklings?

As someone who has read and studied the Inklings extensively, I think the fact that these few misfit professors had such an impact is astounding in that they were able to do it.

To be clear - their level of thought and depth was immense and powerful. All impact is merited. I think these sorts of collections of intellectual individuals are not as rare as we might think; they just don't break out into wider society in the way (in particular) Lewis and Tolkien did.

The average person of today (anecdotal citation here) is less read, less cultured, less knowledgeable of language, history, religion, philopsophy, and literature than the average person of yesteryear. Maybe this has something to do with it.

Re:Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time by Robotbeat on Monday March 29, 2021 @11:02AM (#26622748)
The Inklings were overall extremely well-read and literate. Literally professors on mythology, linguistics/etc. Not necessarily fair to compare the general population to them. ;)
Re:Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time by cmrdporcupine on Monday March 29, 2021 @05:22PM (#26628321)
The average person of that time was far less educated. Because only the elite went to university.
Re:Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time by CivBase on Monday March 29, 2021 @05:28PM (#26628386)
> I have no idea why the level of discourse is on average so primitive, I think church leaders have been systematically underestimating the populace.

They're not underestimating the populace. They're catering to them in a desperate attempt to stay economically viable. The big beautiful building, supporting staff, production equipment, etc doesn't pay for itself.

Many churches are operated as businesses - ones which have realized that the easiest, most profitable mode of operation is to refrain from teaching/challenging your supporters as much as possible. Mix in a sense of tradition, some political activism, and a touch of self-righteousness and you've got yourself a recipe for a successful organization. At least until your congregation passes away and their children realize they have no use for you.

There are still a few churches out there which use the hellfire-and-brimstone approach, but it's not very effective on Gen X and younger. Nowadays, I'm certain it drives more people away from Christianity than it brings in.

Re:Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time by cableshaft on Monday March 29, 2021 @10:19AM (#26621970)
I grew up Protestant but have considered myself Agnostic for a while.

However, lately I've been having the urge to dig into spirituality more, as I'm starting to suspect there can be something there, it's just that, except for a single sermon I sat in about people destroying natural rock formations that have been around for millions of years on a whim (yeah the pastor actually said millions of years), I haven't found anything that seemed worth reflecting on in church services I've attended in a very long time.

The book you posted seems interesting, I'll give that a read. I also found Tolstoy's 'A Confession' very interesting back in the day. Do you have other resources you would recommend I check out?

Re:Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time by whiddershins on Monday March 29, 2021 @11:40AM (#26623422)
Jordan Peterson’s lectures on Genesis are pretty great. I only listened to the first few but they are very powerful.

Are you looking primarily for Christianity or spirituality in general?

Braving the Wilderness (I haven’t finished this one)

For addiction: Breathing Underwater

New Seeds of Contemplation

By reputation: any CS Lewis, Bertrand Russel, and more contemporary is David Bentley Hart

Catching the Big Fish by David Lynch

The Four Agreements

Basically that’s what I’m see in my kindle at the moment that is relevant.

edit: The Power of Now by Eckhart Tolle is incredible I hear the Bhagavad Gita is great Start Where You Are by Pemma Chodron is great

Re:Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time by cableshaft on Monday March 29, 2021 @01:33PM (#26625330)
> Are you looking primarily for Christianity or spirituality in general?

I'll take either. Thank you for those.

Re:Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time by AnimalMuppet on Monday March 29, 2021 @12:43PM (#26624518)
Francis Schaeffer, He Is There And He Is Not Silent.
Re:Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time by bobthechef on Monday March 29, 2021 @10:36AM (#26622276)
Oh, yes. Quoting Fulton Sheen:

"There are not one hundred people in the United States who hate The Catholic Church, but there are millions who hate what they wrongly perceive the Catholic Church to be."

In this case, I would include the majority of Catholics who are oblivious today about the very basics of what the Church believes, much less why, and practice it seldomly on one hand or cliquishly on the other. When the culture becomes hostile to the faith, it is little wonder that many fall away if all that kept them there was vacuous habit and social inertia. Obviously, if your ideas are primitive and stupid, and the culture within the Church enters a malaise, and the promised rewards of defecting and joining the popular chorus seem so enticing, then you will experience defections and apostasy. The intellectual mediocrity of people like Dawkins impresses only the uneducated or the mis-educated.

But frankly, the kinds of apostasies we're seeing in the US are mostly a formality. Those defecting are effectively apostates already. They're just not going through the motions anymore, either because they're tired of faking it, or because the social incentives of putting on appearances no longer seem to exist. You might even fear being seen as a "weirdo", though you will find that most people will admire, even feel intimidated by, a well-informed and educated Catholic who unapologetically and without a feeling of shame or cowardice is frank about his beliefs.

Of course, FWIW, the Church itself is growing in numbers. It is growing rapidly in Africa and in Asia, though Catholics, and more broadly, Christians are the most persecuted group in the world (persecution also tends to produce more conversions). The West is undergoing a period of cultural decadence. Whether it will survive or whether the carcass will rot out completely, I don't know. At the moment, it looks like the future of the Church is on those continents.

Feser has written a few other books that others might also find useful. I have greatly enjoyed his writing. Some find Peter Kreeft, himself a convert, a good introduction (his "Apologetics" for instance), and I've heard some good things about Scott Hahn. These are probably good entry points before venturing into the vast literature of the last few millennia.

Re:Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time by jwalgenbach on Monday March 29, 2021 @11:28AM (#26623205)
"There are not one hundred people in the United States who hate The Catholic Church, but there are millions who hate what they wrongly perceive the Catholic Church to be."

Oh, that's crap. There are more than 100 victims of child sexual abuse by Catholic clergy where the Church itself covered up the crime. You can play with definitions however you want, but that is not a misperception of the Church, but a realistic view of the actions of the Church.

I've been Catholic, and the Church exists to extend the existence of the Church. Any other action is in service to that goal.

Re:Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time by Alenycus on Monday March 29, 2021 @11:51AM (#26623649)
Catholic priests are less likely than the general population to be predators. You only hear about it because the media Is hostile to the church. School districts across the country have done similar things in terms of cover ups but I don't hear the outage there.
Re:Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time by jwalgenbach on Monday March 29, 2021 @12:15PM (#26624048)
So the Church, an organization that sets itself up as the moral arbiter between God and man, doesn't have more of a moral responsibility than school districts across the country?

And there is plenty of moral outrage for coverups, no matter the source.

Please. People hate the Church because it says it is one thing and is another. The media is critical of the Church because the Church has tried to make itself the authority on people's behavior, yet itself behaves in a reprehensible manner. Maybe it should just go back to being the Mafia's bank and just obliquely supporting drug cartels and human rights abuses via loans?

Your whole comment is just whataboutism. You've an opportunity to refute the assertion that the Church knowingly covered up abuse of children, and you've decided that if others have done it, it can't be that bad.

Re:Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time by svieira on Monday March 29, 2021 @02:26PM (#26626139)
The Church only claims that it is a hospital for sinners. It doesn't claim that it is a country club for saints relaxing on earth for a vacation. The surprise that such a hospital should be full of those who need its cures is not Biblical. The sadness that it is so, on the other hand, is, so thank you for your moral outrage!
Re:Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time by jwalgenbach on Monday March 29, 2021 @02:42PM (#26626365)
And no one is claiming that there aren't sinners in the Church, and no one is outraged that there are. The problem is that the "hospital" was moving abusers around from floor to floor to avoid responsibility.

Heck, if the Church defrocked the abusers (those in need of its "cures") when they were reported, and took actions to keep them from abusing and answer for their crimes to the legal authorities, no one would have this (particular) problem. But the Church didn't, because it was protecting itself. The Church is more important to the Church than the victims of those crimes.

Hence, the Church exists to ensure the existent of itself, and all it's actions are in service of that singular goal.

Frankly, moral outrage at child sexual abuse and the systematic cover up of the abuse and protection of the abusers is justified. If the Bible is written in such a way that such moral outrage is a sickness, then it is truly awful foundation to base your morality upon.

But thank _you_ for minimizing the responsibility of those covering up the crimes and ensuring that they could continue.

Re:Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time by svieira on Monday March 29, 2021 @03:14PM (#26626841)
My point is that the Church is not the churchmen and that those who cover up others crimes, like those who commit them are all in the beds. You do not see the Divine Physician and so conflate those under judgment with the One Who judges the living and the dead.

Moral outrage is not a sickness - moral outrage is thinking God's thoughts after Him and so is to be commended!

Re:Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time by jwalgenbach on Monday March 29, 2021 @03:45PM (#26627240)
The Church is composed of the people in it. And should be judged by the actions of those that comprise it, otherwise you are abandoning all agency, and it may as well be dismantled as it could not be responsible for anything it does.

Also, no evidence of any god exists, but that is another argument. Let's stick with arguments that postulates the existence of a God in the Catholic tradition.

First, according to the Bible, papal infallibility has whatever the Church does held as law in Heaven. Stupid rule, but there you are. Therefore, if we judge that covering up and enabling child abuse is immoral, then the Church is by its own rule, immoral. Well, that doesn't work out so well for the Church. So let's leave that aside.

The Catholic Church (and other denominations) tries explain evil (and thus side step the "All Good, All Power, and All Knowing -- pick two problem of God), but claiming that it is all part of God's greater plan. The difficulty here is that it doesn't side step the problem, but tried to solve it by adding a layer of abstraction to it. What you end up with is that God's plan has to be definitionally immoral because it came from the mind of God.

The answer is, of course, who can know the mind of God? It sort of kicks the can down the road much the way the Millerites (now Seventh Day Adventists) do on the end of the world and QAnon does with Trump coming back (was it January 20th? Or March 6th? Or March 20th?). Evil exists because God's plan demands it, but somehow removes the responsibility of God's plan from God.

So, the children were abused by the men acting in God's name because God's plan demanded their suffering, but God owns none of the responsibility because you can't possibly understand the reason that God required the suffering of those children. Nice work, if you can get it.

Free will (in the Catholic tradition) allows the ability to see the harm that actions do upon others, but somehow we are supposed to turn a blind eye to that done under the protection of God. Because those children were clearly not under the protection of God.

Divine Physician, indeed. Physician, heal thyself.

Re:Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time by twobitshifter on Monday March 29, 2021 @02:54PM (#26626567)
I guess there’s someone willing to defend anything.

I don’t see anything about the general population, but to bring up schools is whataboutism. Unfortunately predators seek out jobs that will put them close to children. The Catholic Church coverups go up to the chain of command and they continue to let pedophile priests serve. These issues were well known to the church but they let abuse continue and did not turn priests over to the police. Are you not outraged by this? If your son or daughter was abused by a priest who has been abusing others for decades would you not blame the church?

Re:Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time by rantwasp on Monday March 29, 2021 @11:03AM (#26622774)
lol. you really fail to understand why everything is dumbed down? it’s because 1) people don’t have a lot of time 2) a lot of people don’t need or can’t understand the arguments. why bother?
Re:Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time by Alenycus on Monday March 29, 2021 @11:54AM (#26623705)
Reading dostoesvsky brought my back to the church on a spiritual and emotional level, and the Abolition of Man and Mere Christianity bt CS Lewis brought me back on an emotional level.
Re:Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time by lookdangerous on Monday March 29, 2021 @11:11AM (#26622904)
I agree.

I grew up in a conservative congregation with a difficult-to-understand theology. I went through some dark and nihilistic points in my life but after being exposed to Jordan Peterson's study of Christianity as the mythology that underpins the culture of the west I developed a deep appreciation for these ideas and now consider myself a Christ follower.

Re:Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time by sarabad2021 on Monday March 29, 2021 @09:46AM (#26621438)
The same can be said of science in that science can't explain the supernatural or the after-life. Science was never meant to explain those things but we have tried to make it a replacement by trying to naturalize everything. Things that go beyond this realm of understanding and reason.
Re:Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time by 34679 on Monday March 29, 2021 @09:58AM (#26621622)
The whole point of science is to explain "the supernatural". Lightning was once considered "supernatural". Now it isn't. Science did that. Science does not acknowledge the existence of an afterlife because there is no evidence to support such a conclusion.
Re:Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time by wussboy on Monday March 29, 2021 @10:09AM (#26621799)
In my opinion it explains both perfectly well: The human mind is not perfect and sometimes it gets confused, believing that the supernatural is real and that there is life after death even though time and again these phenomena turn out to have completely naturalistic explanations. If you want to go one level deeper I encourage you to read Darwin’s Cathedral where you’ll learn this tendency to believe in the supernatural is not a bug but a feature.
Re:Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time by jwalgenbach on Monday March 29, 2021 @11:46AM (#26623554)
There's a lot of conceit in this notion that just because _you_ can't understand or explain something means that it goes beyond understanding and explanation.

Religion exists because of that conceit, that notion that either something is immediately explainable or that it is supernatural. Science exists because the idea that something isn't understood now doesn't mean that we (as a species) won't ever understand it.

We stand on the shoulders who have come before us, and not one of them was a god.

Re:Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time by seneca on Monday March 29, 2021 @09:57AM (#26621600)
> Science was never meant to explain those things but we have tried to make it a replacement by trying to naturalize everything. Things that go beyond this realm of understanding and reason.

Criticizing a flashlight for being a poor saw is a flaw in the criticizer, not the flashlight.