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Re:PinePhone – Beta Edition Linux SmartPhone Preorder by zepto on Wednesday March 24, 2021 @10:22AM (#26567590)
> Why would this project be more effective at doing this than iOS or Android?

This is an excellent question. The basic answer is that the incentive structures are different. Apple’s platforms are primarily designed to efficiently deliver commercial software. The app-store, the apis and everything else about their OS ecosystem is designed around the idea that packaged Apps, immutable to the user and remotely maintained by a commercial developer, are the answer to solving end-user problems using computers. They implement this model better than anyone else, but it’s not the only model.

Two other models are GNU Linux and it’s open source ecosystem, and the Smalltalk model as exemplified by pharo. In both of these models, the user isn’t just a consumer of Apps or the system, but is an active participant in creating it.

I’m not suggesting that either of these are the solution as they stand. I’m just pointing out that the iOS / Apple model is not the only possibility. You are right that just competing with it directly would fail. Even Android is failing at that.

> I don’t see why people other than ideological technologists would want to use this phone.

This is perjorative sounding, but a reasonable concern. If the answer was ‘people would use smalltalk instead of buying apps’, or ‘with Linux people can build whatever phone they like’, then I’d agree with you.

Of course we need something that end-users can plausibly use without being a technologist.

My argument is that we can actually build such a thing, and that it can be much better as a ‘bicycle for the mind’ than iOS.

> Many companies have tried before - Microsoft, Amazon, Canonical, and failed.

This is to be expected. A company trying to compete with Apple on their terms, even if they have the resources of Microsoft, is going to fail.

The answer will be a low-end disruption - something that is good enough, but also capable of things that iOS is not because of the commercial model. It won’t come from one company trying to take on Apple directly.

Re:PinePhone – Beta Edition Linux SmartPhone Preorder by entropicdrifter on Wednesday March 24, 2021 @12:13PM (#26569155)
>You are right that just competing with it directly would fail. Even Android is failing at that.

...What? Citation needed. Android by far accounts for the majority (85%) of smartphones not just worldwide but even in nearly all wealthy countries other than the US, Canada and Japan.

https://www.mobileapps.com/blog/android-vs-ios-market-share#...

Re:PinePhone – Beta Edition Linux SmartPhone Preorder by zepto on Wednesday March 24, 2021 @12:52PM (#26569780)
Look at profitability and developer attention in the app ecosystem.
Re:PinePhone – Beta Edition Linux SmartPhone Preorder by entropicdrifter on Wednesday March 24, 2021 @04:29PM (#26572477)
In terms of raw profits, sure, Apple makes more off of its app ecosystem than Google does off of Android, but in terms of health of the app ecosystem itself, the Google Play app store accounted for 20 billion out of the combined total of 28.4 billion app downloads in 2018 ( https://www.techaheadcorp.com/blog/android-vs-ios/ ). I'd hardly call that failing, more like 'utterly dominating'
Re:PinePhone – Beta Edition Linux SmartPhone Preorder by zepto on Wednesday March 24, 2021 @05:43PM (#26573340)
If that’s true, it means almost nobody pays for any software on Android.

The fact a lot of people download free apps is pretty much meaningless.

You may as well say a lot of people visit websites on Android.

Re:PinePhone – Beta Edition Linux SmartPhone Preorder by entropicdrifter on Thursday March 25, 2021 @12:28PM (#26582248)
So, in your mind, the world's most active software ecosystem is failing because it doesn't extract as much capital as a system set up as a premium product ecosystem targeted at the world's elites? Interesting take.

By the same logic, you could argue that Linux is failing relative to both OS X and Windows in the server market because it's not making as much money.

Re:PinePhone – Beta Edition Linux SmartPhone Preorder by zepto on Thursday March 25, 2021 @01:57PM (#26583336)
> So, in your mind, the world's most active software ecosystem

It’s not the world’s most active software ecosystem. The web is.

> is failing because it doesn't extract as much capital

It is failing as a business.

> as a system set up as a premium product ecosystem targeted at the world's elites?

If you consider most American teenagers to be ‘the world’s elites’, then ok.

> By the same logic, you could argue that Linux is failing relative to both OS X and Windows in the server market because it's not making as much money.

Only if it were true, but it isn’t.

Re:PinePhone – Beta Edition Linux SmartPhone Preorder by aroman on Wednesday March 24, 2021 @11:44AM (#26568684)
I agree that if the “active participant” model somehow became a better fit for most people than the Apple/Google model, it seems like disruption would be possible.

That’s a big “if” though. Curious if you think there are larger trends that would suggest that the current standard of the “walled garden”/closed software model will become less effective than the “active participant” model in meeting the computing needs of everyday people.

Re:PinePhone – Beta Edition Linux SmartPhone Preorder by zepto on Wednesday March 24, 2021 @01:07PM (#26570013)
Yes, it’s a big if, however the number of people who can code and the general sophistication level of even amateur programmers is rising over time.

Actual computer literacy in the sense of being about to both read and write programs is only going to increase over time.

My sense is that Apple is underserving the needs of software creators in general, by shoehorning everything into Apps.

They could respond to this, and I have been expecting them to for years. My sense now is that they may be too are too blinded by the store model to realize what is happening.

This is one of the trends that I think Jobs would have understood, but that a post Jobs Apple may miss.

Another trend is the rise of crypto. I am not a Bitcoin bull or anything like that, but now that there is so much creativity in the crypto space, I think it’s entirely feasible that we could solve the problem of distributing trust, so that we can provide something for end users with the safety of the App Store but without the central gatekeeper.

This is not even close to being a solved problem yet, which is why I oppose the breakup of app stores.

However the basic tools seem to exist for us to solve it, as does the pressure.