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Re:In January, there were more real-estate agents than homes... by theferalrobot on Monday March 22, 2021 @01:31PM (#26543864)
Slightly off topic but... as someone that is moving out of the city and even a few states over does anyone have any advice on home buying? Would it be better to buy now or rent for a bit and then buy? Is that like asking what stocks to invest in or is it more predictable than that? I have zero experience with this sort of thing.
Re:In January, there were more real-estate agents than homes... by hirundo on Monday March 22, 2021 @01:47PM (#26544111)
> Is that like asking what stocks to invest

Yes it is. Watch "The Big Short" if you think the housing market might be less crazy. So take my advice with the appropriate skepticism:

With the lock downs and rise in remote work there has been upward pressure on rural and low density housing prices, same as toilet paper and weightlifting equipment. That makes it a seller's market. I have rural neighbors moving forward their plans to sell for that reason. As a buyer I might be inclined to wait for the pandemic to pass and for prices to revert somewhat to the mean.

This advice is brought to you by someone who managed to buy at the very top of the real estate market. I think the crash happened when I signed my purchase agreement.

Re:In January, there were more real-estate agents than homes... by mjh2539 on Monday March 22, 2021 @02:32PM (#26544793)
> As a buyer I might be inclined to wait for the pandemic to pass and for prices to revert somewhat to the mean.

The opposite force (motivating you to buy now) is that interest rates are very low, and that will probably change in the future.

Re:In January, there were more real-estate agents than homes... by gruez on Monday March 22, 2021 @02:59PM (#26545195)
>The opposite force (motivating you to buy now) is that interest rates are very low, and that will probably change in the future.

It's low for you, but also low for everyone else. Low interest rates push purchase prices higher because people care about monthly payments, not the final price. Overall it's a wash and you don't gain/lose for buying in a low/high interest rate environment.

Re:In January, there were more real-estate agents than homes... by rsj_hn on Monday March 22, 2021 @03:40PM (#26545734)
This is the correct take.

Low interest rates means house prices are high now, and they will fall when interest rates climb, giving you capital losses. Much better to buy when interest rates are high, as rates will fall in the future and house prices will increase, giving you capital gains.

In both cases, you will pay the same amount for the same house in terms of monthly payments, as households are payment constrained, and they don't particularly care what percentage of their monthly payment goes to pay for principle and what percentage pays for interest. They max out what they can afford in terms of the total monthly payment, and thus houses prices go up and down in the opposite direction of interest rates.

But be careful, even though it is much better to buy when rates are high, that doesn't mean that waiting for rates to go up is a good strategy, as rates may not go up for twenty years, or even a hundred years - you don't know. But certainly a low interest rate environment is a terrible time to buy a house, even if you have to suck it up and buy anyway.

Re:In January, there were more real-estate agents than homes... by ryandrake on Monday March 22, 2021 @04:30PM (#26546502)
But when will rates be high? Rates have been consistently falling since 1981...for the last 40 years! They have been under 5% for the last 10 years. No sign of any upward pressure at all.
Re:In January, there were more real-estate agents than homes... by rsj_hn on Monday March 22, 2021 @07:33PM (#26548951)
I would answer that question by asking how much lower do you think rates will go? And how long do you think the current IR will last? Rates were rising from about 1951 (when the Fed first gained independence) to about 1980. The've been falling from the mid 80s until the present. Whatever happens, everything comes to an end, and the current regime is a bit long in the tooth already.

Bottom line, rates will change when there is a financial regime change due to the current system no longer working. I think it's obvious that what we are doing now is unsustainable: running massive deficits, enormous capital account inflows, and dollar appreciation. In terms of what would be the breaking point, one can only speculate as to whether it is too much inflation, or too many defaults, etc. At some point, the snowballing side effects of our current policies will just stop working, at which point a new regime will be needed. I don't know when.

For a big picture view, I recommend Sydney Homer's A History of Interest Rates. It's a great read and discusses long term interest rate regimes as well as various triggers that changed them.

In terms of trying to time these regime changes, I wouldn't bother. What you can do is hedge a bit so that you are not financially ruined in case there is a regime change. I would not use the low IR regime we have now to massively go into long term variable rate debt, for example, or massively go into long term fixed rate debt if you can't handle a rate increase. So just be aware that rates will go up at some point, and make sure you can handle that before taking on a lot of leverage.

Re:In January, there were more real-estate agents than homes... by refurb on Monday March 22, 2021 @09:58PM (#26550100)
Re:In January, there were more real-estate agents than homes... by sangnoir on Monday March 22, 2021 @04:03PM (#26546101)
> Overall it's a wash and you don't gain/lose for buying in a low/high interest rate environment.

You can't paint with such a broad stroke without crunching numbers - I think the better, but less satisfying answer is "it depends". It depends on the specific market and pricing dynamics (past and future), as well as on the length of the mortgage term and how high interest will go in the future - which is hard to know beforehand. Further complicating this are objective factors such as flexibility (of renting), and how much you're willing to pay for it. Buying a house is huge time-sink: expect to screen hundreds of houses and actually viewing dozens of them. Then you have to put together an offer quickly. If you're unlucky, your offer may be tied to some other buyer and the seller may ask you to write a motivating essay on why they should sell you their house - which I find insulting and time-wasting.

To GP: you need to write down actual figures and work it all out for best & worst cases - estimates are fine. When you are done, pick a path you are comfortable with.

Re:In January, there were more real-estate agents than homes... by dcolkitt on Monday March 22, 2021 @03:35PM (#26545672)
Nearly half of home sales are to cash buyers, who at least theoretically aren’t sensitive to mortgage rates.

https://www.appraisalinstitute.org/Nearly50PercentofHomeSale...

Re:In January, there were more real-estate agents than homes... by hirundo on Monday March 22, 2021 @03:41PM (#26545751)
The half that are sensitive to mortgage rates bid up prices for both halves when rates are low.
Re:In January, there were more real-estate agents than homes... by asdff on Monday March 22, 2021 @04:48PM (#26546783)
I feel like its the cash buyer who is dictating these sale prices, no?
Re:In January, there were more real-estate agents than homes... by refurb on Monday March 22, 2021 @09:59PM (#26550106)
Cash buyer often means just waiving financing contingencies, not having actual cash.
Re:In January, there were more real-estate agents than homes... by k3oni on Monday March 22, 2021 @01:51PM (#26544177)
With the market prices being as high as they are now and low inventory I would recommend you rent for now and get to know the new area/city first. It's a seller's market right now and there's a higher chance of you over-paying for a property right now. I keep telling friends that i would rather buy a home with a lower price but higher rate/apr than vice-versa. You can always refinance, but you'll never be able to change the price you've paid.

Edit: Also worth noting that real estate markets are more local, so there exists the chance that you might still be able to find some affordable houses but depends on the area.

Re:In January, there were more real-estate agents than homes... by majormajor on Monday March 22, 2021 @02:02PM (#26544343)
> I keep telling friends that i would rather buy a home with a lower price but higher rate/apr than vice-versa. You can always refinance, but you'll never be able to change the price you've paid.

This is true, but assumes that prices drop significantly rather than merely stop rising like crazy and also doesn't include that if you're renting, you never get that rent back from the period of time you were waiting.

Re:In January, there were more real-estate agents than homes... by k3oni on Monday March 22, 2021 @02:21PM (#26544648)
That specific point was more related to the market i'm in right now, so it's pretty much market/area depended and yes as you point out your mileage might vary as i've never taken rent into consideration for this use case.
Re:In January, there were more real-estate agents than homes... by jpm_sd on Monday March 22, 2021 @01:43PM (#26544039)
> Is that like asking what stocks to invest in

Yes, pretty much. We are definitely in an asset price bubble but "the [housing] market can remain irrational longer than you can remain solvent" (with apologies to Keynes).

The strategy I have successfully pursued in two cross-USA moves: find a not-too-expensive house in a neighborhood that has some kind of long term value, whatever that means (good schools? close to nature? cultural opportunities?). Remote work is great, but try to be within commutable distance of non remote opportunities in your field as a hedge against future change.

That way, even if the market plunges in absolute terms by the time you need to move again, relative value should hold up? Hopefully?

Re:In January, there were more real-estate agents than homes... by Bhilai on Monday March 22, 2021 @03:20PM (#26545461)
Depends a lot on the city where you want to buy but more generally I think the current frenzy will ease out a bit once covid restrictions are done with, interest rates go slightly higher and there is more inventory in the market. I dont have any data suggesting this but I feel a lot of home owners are not selling at the moment because they would too need to pay a much higher price for their next home. But there is some contrary evidence too where some owners who want to downsize or move away from an urban area are looking to cash out big.
Re:In January, there were more real-estate agents than homes... by datavirtue on Monday March 22, 2021 @05:02PM (#26547001)
First time home buyers are completely boxed out right now. There are people sitting on down payments waiting this out.
Re:In January, there were more real-estate agents than homes... by yardie on Monday March 22, 2021 @05:48PM (#26547690)
We moved countries, France -> US. Rented for a year and used that time to search for something we liked. Avoided a lot of pigs with lipstick as home flippers in a hot market tend to slap on new paint and do shoddy, minimal repairs. I personally wouldn't buy until I'm absolutely ready to. And yes, we did miss a few opportunities since we weren't ready.

Unlike my experience buying in France, the US does not do bridge loans. You are a) lucky and close as a seller and buyer, b) take on 2 mortgages hoping the old house sells, c) are temporarily homeless, d) or temporarily renting.

Housing is super emotional and I hate having to make emotional decisions. You have to make a lifelong decision based on a 30 minute tour. And buying in a hot market just makes everything more stressful. I'm not surprised people are making lightning quick decisions because hesitating is not an option.

Re:In January, there were more real-estate agents than homes... by ghaff on Monday March 22, 2021 @01:42PM (#26544023)
A few questions I would ask:

- Do you have confidence that you'll be able to continue working from wherever you move to?

- Are you looking at a house or a condo? (It's generally easier to rent an apartment than a house.)

- What are your motivations to buy? There's plenty out there on the financial side. Some of it is even reasonably accurate. However, IMO you should probably be thinking more about whether you want stability and the ability to customize a home or are you wanting to maintain a degree of flexibility if you decide to move somewhere else in a few years?

- Do you know the area(s) you're thinking of moving to? If not, it may make sense to rent for a while while you decide if that's where you really want to be.

Re:In January, there were more real-estate agents than homes... by jpm_sd on Monday March 22, 2021 @01:45PM (#26544068)
It's enough of a seller's market that OP will almost certainly have to rent at/near their destination while house hunting. Last time I moved, it was 6 months of rental while going to open houses every weekend.
Re:In January, there were more real-estate agents than homes... by freeone3000 on Monday March 22, 2021 @01:46PM (#26544086)
Even with regards to maintaining a degree of flexibility, it might be worth considering if you actually do lose money on closing costs + taxes + value loss than you will on rent, even for a short term. Half or more of every mortgage payment is invested in an asset, 0% of every rent payment is.
Re:In January, there were more real-estate agents than homes... by ghaff on Monday March 22, 2021 @02:27PM (#26544735)
On the other hand you're foregoing any further returns on the money you take out of savings to pay the down payment and closing costs. It's definitely not as simple as rent is throwing money away compared to buying.
Re:In January, there were more real-estate agents than homes... by freeone3000 on Monday March 22, 2021 @03:06PM (#26545285)
For a $200,000 down payment on a $2500 a month mortgage (with 50% going to principal) versus $2000 a month rent, you'd need ten months to get past the $10,000 closing costs even assuming 10% return on next-best option and that the value of your home remains flat. Owning the place you live is probably the best investment you can make.
Re:In January, there were more real-estate agents than homes... by FireBeyond on Monday March 22, 2021 @04:20PM (#26546347)
The median household income was $68K in 2019, the highest it's ever been. That's $55K a year after tax. Now you're paying $2,000 in rent. Even if you don't spend a single cent of income on anything else besides a house, you'd still be looking at seven years to come up with that downpayment. Realistically, more like 15 years with expenses, at a minimum. i.e. "Don't buy a house until you're about 40 years old".

> The usual rule of thumb is that you can afford a mortgage two to 2.5 times your annual income.

So for the median family, $140K-$170K.

I'm not sure where the median family lives that they're buying $170K homes that they were previously renting for $2K/month, but it sure ain't anywhere near here.

Not to mention appraisal discrepancies, which require you to have the funds for the downpayment, for the closing, and to cover the appraisal discrepancy dollar for dollar.

But generally, I'm just trying to figure out how we come to the conclusion that the average family is putting anything close to a fraction of $200K to a downpayment.

Re:In January, there were more real-estate agents than homes... by freeone3000 on Monday March 22, 2021 @04:28PM (#26546471)
Usually inheritance and gifts from wealthy relatives. If you don't have that, you won't be buying a house and will forever be renting save the rare outliers with $200k/year jobs. It still doesn't make renting a good idea.
Re:In January, there were more real-estate agents than homes... by topkai22 on Monday March 22, 2021 @02:26PM (#26544715)
So we just bought a house in the same zip code we currently own in. You are right, it is a bit like picking stocks, but there are some general rules you can follow that might help.

House prices are ballooning for two reasons right now- COVID and interest rates. COVID means you are going to pay premium regardless rightn now, interest rates are more interesting. Interest rates are up a bit from their bottom at the beginning of 2021, but are still historically low. Because so much of a house price is financed, if your time frame is long enough paying a premium on a house right now might be worth it now if you expect interest rates to rise. Using some VERY bad financial math, a $500,000 house financed at 3% for 30 years is "cheaper" than a $400,000 house financed at 5% on a cash flow basis.

Transaction costs for houses are high- expect to pay 8-10% of the price of the house to get is sold (this goes to real estate agents fees, taxes, prep work, etc.) If you aren't sure you are going to stay in the area for a long time than definitely don't buy- think of it as your house immediately depreciating by 10% when you buy it.

Traditionally, housing prices has also been considered a good inflation hedge, if you want to factor that into your calculations. However, that has been way less true post 2000 (where there hasn't been much inflation and housing prices have been way over the map.)

Finally though, housing isn't just a investment, it is also a consumption good. In my case that was probably the deciding factor for us- we choose to increase the amount of money we are spending on housing because that is what we wanted to buy.

Some more insight into our thought process: 1) We knew we wanted to buy a house in one of three neighborhoods and had always planned to move within within the 2022-2024 timeframe. We moved up our time frame by the year, but this was always happening for us. 3) We are already bought into the area, so we had already benefited from the overheated market. 4) We timed our interest rate lock just about perfectly- interest rates are now 0.5% higher. 5) The house that came on the market is across the street from friends of ours, we were willing to pay a premium to be near our social circle.

In the end, we bought a house I fully believe will be worth less next year than today, but will be OK (althought not great) as an investment in 20 years (which is our time horizon.) In your case, if you aren't super familiar with the area or aren't sure you have a 10+ year time horizon you might want to rent just to give you time to understand the new city your are moving to- the type of mistakes you can make in buying a primary residence aren't just that you lose money on the asset, but that you don't like where you live for years.

Re:In January, there were more real-estate agents than homes... by AnimalMuppet on Monday March 22, 2021 @02:37PM (#26544880)
Could you explain a bit about why COVID is making housing prices balloon right now?
Re:In January, there were more real-estate agents than homes... by ghaff on Monday March 22, 2021 @02:39PM (#26544908)
People are moving out of cities (where they were often renting) and into suburban/rural houses. People are moving into bigger houses. On the wealthy end of the spectrum people have even bought second homes outside the city.
Re:In January, there were more real-estate agents than homes... by topkai22 on Monday March 22, 2021 @02:48PM (#26545045)
Pretty much. Some additional insight I've heard is that COVID has restricted peoples ability to consume things other than housing, so people have the ability to consume more housing. If a family normally spent $7k on housing every year but didn't because of COVID, that is $7k more they have for a down payment, which means they can buy $35k more house.
Re:In January, there were more real-estate agents than homes... by ghaff on Monday March 22, 2021 @03:04PM (#26545268)
One interesting question is how much of this is pulling in activity that would have played out in a similar way over the next few years. For example, it's not uncommon for young people who get married, maybe have kids, to move out of a city to the suburbs for more space and better schools.

To the degree it's actions that would have happened anyway, it probably implies there will be something of a dip after the current spike.

Re:In January, there were more real-estate agents than homes... by asdff on Monday March 22, 2021 @04:55PM (#26546892)
I'm not so sure we'd see a dip in housing, although we see the dip in luxury rental prices. The reasons for this is due to supply, or a lack thereof. There are new generations looking to settle down and do the above every single year. Every year more than the last are doing this, this is an expanding world. Yet, these areas where these people are moving to are not building the corresponding amount of housing required to meet demand. With not enough new housing built, prices rise, and people 'drive to where they qualify,' stretch out their car based commute, and we all deal with those externalities from the increased congestion and pollution no matter where we live in the city. It's a lose lose unless the US finally bends and start building housing, but they haven't done this in earnest since the boom after WWII (where we are still bidding on that hastily constructed housing stock today, because that's legally all there is in some neighborhoods).
Re:In January, there were more real-estate agents than homes... by joshuaheard on Monday March 22, 2021 @03:38PM (#26545704)
The Orange County, California, rental market has seen a huge surge in demand. I listed a rental property, and after two days, I had to cut off listings and applications. I had over 40 inquiries. I have never seen anything like this. I have talked to other realtors and the consensus is that people are moving from LA because the density of LA is causing a Covid fear, people can work remotely now and choose to live better in Orange County, and last year's riots caused people to be fed up with urban areas.
Re:In January, there were more real-estate agents than homes... by asdff on Monday March 22, 2021 @05:03PM (#26547004)
What sort of rental property are we talking about? Single family home rentals I can see as getting more popular, but I wouldn't think a 200 unit apartment in OC to be much different than one in LA in terms of demand these days. IMO it's in OC, ventura, and san bernardino county that I see way more lax mask usage than in LA county, as well as more crowded restaurants due to a less strict health department.
Re:In January, there were more real-estate agents than homes... by starclerk on Monday March 22, 2021 @02:35PM (#26544839)
Time in the market > timing the market.

As long as you don't put more than ~30% of your money into a single asset (e.g. a house), then you're pretty certain to always make money in the long-term.

Re:In January, there were more real-estate agents than homes... by boring_twenties on Monday March 22, 2021 @04:34PM (#26546552)
How many people are buying a house with anything less than 100% of their money?

Everyone I know who "owns" a home first had to save up for a 3-20% down payment, which translates to having 500-3,300% of their money in the asset.

Biggest outlier I know personally put 50% down, so 200%.

Obviously I know that cash buyers exist too but that's not most people, unless I'm woefully wrong.

Re:In January, there were more real-estate agents than homes... by bsurmanski on Monday March 22, 2021 @03:43PM (#26545788)
heh, good luck finding a house worth less than 30% of your net worth.
Re:In January, there were more real-estate agents than homes... by starclerk on Tuesday March 30, 2021 @03:48PM (#26639482)
(late reply)

That wasn't what I was referring to. Net worth is (assets - debts), so the money for a down payment is largely the only part of a house that contributes to net worth at purchase time.

In other words, your down payment should be less than 30% of your net worth. Still hard to do in many places.

Re:In January, there were more real-estate agents than homes... by brianwawok on Monday March 22, 2021 @03:48PM (#26545853)
Very very easy in much of the midwest, with a tech job.
Re:In January, there were more real-estate agents than homes... by dcolkitt on Monday March 22, 2021 @03:33PM (#26545634)
One thing, I’d at least consider, is buying vacant land and building. Normally you pay a premium for a new build relative to an existing house. But in this market houses are regularly getting bid 20% over list. To be fair, materials costs and certain subcontractor labor costs are also up, but the overall price tag, nowhere near as much.

This is probably one of the few times when building new is cheaper than buying old. New builds with modern finishes are more likely to hold value if/when there’s a downturn.

Re:In January, there were more real-estate agents than homes... by lotsofpulp on Monday March 22, 2021 @03:43PM (#26545775)
Unless you know people in the construction industry, and/or are familiar with construction yourself and evaluating whether or not the job is being done right, I would not recommend building yourself, especially in hot markets.

If you're small fry, you're not going to be able to secure the best workers, and you can easily get taken advantage of because you have no idea what shortcuts people are taking if you're not checking up on things.

Also, materials costs are insane right now, if you can even get them in a timely fashion. I know someone who took out a construction loan early 2020 based on estimates pre pandemic. They started building recently, and blew threw their budget on lumber alone and had to draw from retirement accounts to keep going.

It is a great learning exercise, but not one many can afford on their primary residence.

Re:In January, there were more real-estate agents than homes... by datavirtue on Monday March 22, 2021 @05:01PM (#26546974)
This. Don't build unless you you already know what you are doing. I know what I'm doing and it is an absolute bitch and I am finding I have to do most of my own work.
Re:In January, there were more real-estate agents than homes... by matwood on Monday March 22, 2021 @05:28PM (#26547382)
> if you can even get them in a timely fashion

This. Not just materials but parts because of supply chain backups. Oh, and general worker rates. I just had to replace a hot water heater. Big box stores had prices listed (~$1300 but no stock). Plumber wanted to charge $4k for the equipment and installation. Luckily I knew someone who had wholesale accounts, called all over the state, and found one. Then I did the install in ~2 hours. Dealing with that for an entire house, sounds like a terrible experience.

Re:In January, there were more real-estate agents than homes... by matwood on Monday March 22, 2021 @05:14PM (#26547189)
I would rent for a bit just to get your bearings in the new place. It's hard to know what part of town you really want to live in, until you experience it for a bit.
Re:In January, there were more real-estate agents than homes... by xbmcuser on Monday March 22, 2021 @02:36PM (#26544863)
In the next few years inflation is expected to be high ie dollar value is going to go down so house prices could go up as well as interest rates are also expected to go up. So if you are interested in buying in the current situation I would advise buying as soon as you can and if going to mortgage lock down a lower interest rate.
Re:In January, there were more real-estate agents than homes... by jccalhoun on Monday March 22, 2021 @03:56PM (#26545968)
I would say if you can afford a good down payment then buy now. Otherwise, rent and save more for a down payment.
Re:In January, there were more real-estate agents than homes... by datavirtue on Monday March 22, 2021 @04:50PM (#26546808)
Don't do it unless you have to.