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Re:CFTC Orders Coinbase Inc. To Pay $6.5M Penalty by londons_explore on Friday March 19, 2021 @10:07PM (#26520153)
All these actions and far more are widely done by less scrupulous bitcoin exchanges.

Seems a bit unfair on coinbase when pretty much everyone else is doing this stuff deliberately, whereas they are being punished for a seemingly accidental case of the same.

Re:CFTC Orders Coinbase Inc. To Pay $6.5M Penalty by TylerE on Friday March 19, 2021 @10:27PM (#26520260)
"According to the order, between January 2015 and September 2018, Coinbase recklessly delivered false, misleading, or inaccurate reports concerning transactions in digital assets, including Bitcoin, on the GDAX electronic trading platform it operated. During this period, Coinbase operated two automated trading programs, Hedger and Replicator, which generated orders that at times matched with one another. The GDAX Trading Rules specifically disclosed that Coinbase was trading on GDAX, but failed to disclose that Coinbase was operating more than one trading program and trading through multiple accounts.

In addition, the order finds that while Hedger and Replicator had independent purposes, in practice the programs matched orders with one another in certain trading pairs, resulting in trades between accounts owned by Coinbase."

Doesn't sound very accidental.

Re:CFTC Orders Coinbase Inc. To Pay $6.5M Penalty by PragmaticPulp on Friday March 19, 2021 @10:34PM (#26520299)
The worst part is at the bottom:

> The order also finds that over a six-week period—August through September 2016—a former Coinbase employee used a manipulative or deceptive device by intentionally placing buy and sell orders in the Litecoin/Bitcoin trading pair on GDAX that matched each other as wash trades. This created the misleading appearance of liquidity and trading interest in Litecoin.

We always knew that wash trading activity was rampant in the cryptocurrency space, but I didn't actually expect Coinbase employees to be doing it within Coinbase. If employees of the most regulated exchange in the world were wash trading with some regularity, makes you wonder how bad it must be at some of the more Wild West exchanges.

Re:CFTC Orders Coinbase Inc. To Pay $6.5M Penalty by NaturalPhallacy on Friday March 19, 2021 @10:48PM (#26520385)
(Devil's advocate disclaimer) I worked in High Frequency Trading for a TBTF bank alongside the former Automated Trading Desk employees and spoke with their quants a few times.

And I literally worked on a Dark Pool Crossing Engine myself at the the time, and here's my take:

Having multiple algorithms running at the same time was...unremarkable. And since they're all running different algorithms and all trying to game the market, it wouldn't surprise me if they ended up trading with each other by accident, especially if they had multiple accounts to trade with. What's honestly more surprising is that they only had two running at once. And further, if they both traded through a dark pool, then there's no way they could know they were trading with each other, because that's one of the intended features of a dark pool.

So accidental seem plausible, but then again so does malice.

Now if it wasn't through a dark pool, and the algos could see each other's accounts, then naughty naughty, and they deserved every cent of the fine.

Re:CFTC Orders Coinbase Inc. To Pay $6.5M Penalty by Galanwe on Friday March 19, 2021 @11:09PM (#26520505)
Sorry but I have to disagree strongly here.

Having two separate algos directly and actively trading in the wild is highly unusual.

There are obvious reasons for which you don't want your algos to trade one against the other on the market.

First, it's very dangerous as you can end up in the situation described here where you essentially self make the market.

But more directly for simple execution costs/fees reasons.

I don't know of any single player that has concurrent algos where there is not a "netting" layer between algos and the market, so that concurrent trades are matched internally before reaching the market.

Re:CFTC Orders Coinbase Inc. To Pay $6.5M Penalty by NaturalPhallacy on Saturday March 20, 2021 @02:44AM (#26521278)
>Having two separate algos directly and actively trading in the wild is highly unusual.

No it's not. ATD had like 50.

>There are obvious reasons for which you don't want your algos to trade one against the other on the market.

Who said they're trading against each other? Just look at GME. Swapping shares back and forth makes trading volume go up.

Every imbalance is gameable, and they have armies of people whose job is to find every gameable imbalance and make money off of it.

>First, it's very dangerous as you can end up in the situation described here where you essentially self make the market.

As we've seen when traders have bankrupted themselves.

>I don't know of any single player that has concurrent algos where there is not a "netting" layer between algos and the market, so that concurrent trades are matched internally before reaching the market.

Well I know of one that had 15+, and coinbase just got busted with two so...

Re:CFTC Orders Coinbase Inc. To Pay $6.5M Penalty by klyrs on Friday March 19, 2021 @11:14PM (#26520534)
I'm not of this realm, but you've convinced me that dark pools are harmful, and intentionally so.
Re:CFTC Orders Coinbase Inc. To Pay $6.5M Penalty by NaturalPhallacy on Saturday March 20, 2021 @12:32AM (#26520822)
One reason for it is so that Citigroup can't see that Goldman Sachs is buying 500K of some stock and fuck over retail investors by buying up theirs cheaply and selling to GS.

They're not evil, just another tool.

I don't (and won't) work for them again, but there were non-evil reasons for a dark pool.

Anonymous trading (dark pools) also prevents favoritism and collusion too. You're trading based on nothing but the price and public information about the company. So it's less gameable.

Re:CFTC Orders Coinbase Inc. To Pay $6.5M Penalty by bluecalm on Saturday March 20, 2021 @02:09AM (#26521148)
It's understandable that exchange participants run multiple algorithms but what about the exchange itself? Why would it run any trading algorithms at all?
Re:CFTC Orders Coinbase Inc. To Pay $6.5M Penalty by tehlike on Friday March 19, 2021 @10:49PM (#26520389)
If you know who that employee is, and how litecoin got to get listed on coinbase, the story will make more sense to you.

Coinbase is playing by the rules, that's why they are not shut down but got a small fine.

All other exchanges will probably shut down and their operators might even get jail time.

Re:CFTC Orders Coinbase Inc. To Pay $6.5M Penalty by freeAgent on Friday March 19, 2021 @11:03PM (#26520476)
It’s easy to imagine that this anonymous employee may be Charlie Lee, creator of Litecoin.
Re:CFTC Orders Coinbase Inc. To Pay $6.5M Penalty by wmf on Friday March 19, 2021 @11:19PM (#26520558)
The timeline for people who aren't familiar with this story:

Oct 2011: Charlie Lee created Litecoin

Jul 2013: Charlie Lee went to work for Coinbase

Aug 2016: GDAX (now known as Coinbase Pro) added support for Litecoin

Aug-Sep 2016: An unnamed Coinbase employee manipulated Litecoin trading volume on GDAX

May 2017: Coinbase retail added support for Litecoin, which doubled in price immediately

Jun 2017: Charlie Lee left Coinbase (presumably having accomplished his goal of getting Litecoin listed)

Dec 2017: Charlie Lee sold all his Litecoin near the all-time high

Re:CFTC Orders Coinbase Inc. To Pay $6.5M Penalty by tehlike on Friday March 19, 2021 @11:12PM (#26520523)
Shhh.
Re:CFTC Orders Coinbase Inc. To Pay $6.5M Penalty by PragmaticPulp on Friday March 19, 2021 @10:37PM (#26520318)
> Seems a bit unfair on coinbase when pretty much everyone else is doing this stuff deliberately

"Everyone else is doing it" was never a valid excuse.

This statement suggests that at least one Coinbase employee was acting very deliberately. No accidents here. Why would an exchange need to trade from multiple accounts with multiple uncoordinated bots in the first place?

Re:CFTC Orders Coinbase Inc. To Pay $6.5M Penalty by dannyw on Saturday March 20, 2021 @01:32AM (#26520999)
Because literally every prop trading firm in the world runs more than one algorithm??? The same way you have more than one unit test file?
Re:CFTC Orders Coinbase Inc. To Pay $6.5M Penalty by asdfasgasdgasdg on Friday March 19, 2021 @10:45PM (#26520363)
This is a mosquito bite. They are a 50+ billion dollar company. When a company this big breaks the law it would be crazy to not enforce it on them.
Re:CFTC Orders Coinbase Inc. To Pay $6.5M Penalty by 3np on Friday March 19, 2021 @10:39PM (#26520333)
Most of those unscrupulous exchanges are not in the US. I’m personally a bit surprised there hasn’t been more heat on Poloniex, though.
Re:CFTC Orders Coinbase Inc. To Pay $6.5M Penalty by hntrader on Saturday March 20, 2021 @01:31AM (#26520997)
No, everyone else isn't doing it.

Haven't seen evidence of the big ones doing it - Bitmex, Binance, etc. FTX has good analysis on this.

Re:CFTC Orders Coinbase Inc. To Pay $6.5M Penalty by tehlike on Saturday March 20, 2021 @01:48AM (#26521046)
Never believe an analysis in crypto unless you are knowledgeable enough to replicate it yourself.
Re:CFTC Orders Coinbase Inc. To Pay $6.5M Penalty by hntrader on Saturday March 20, 2021 @01:52AM (#26521063)
I am, and it's easy to check yourself.

Queue a single lot in the queue and observe that your fill is exactly when you expect. If they were generating fake trades it would be obvious since there would be trades that don't lead to you getting filled when you should be getting filled.

If instead they were actually wash trading on the real market (not just generating fake trades, which is the most common approach), that would be much harder to detect with any kind of forensic analysis of the data, you'd need some whistle-blower. However, doing this would be impossible in a liquid asset like BTCUSD or LTCUSD.

Re:CFTC Orders Coinbase Inc. To Pay $6.5M Penalty by peteretep on Friday March 19, 2021 @10:44PM (#26520359)
> Seems a bit unfair on coinbase

Nah, the opposite. It’s a small financial slap on the wrist, and in exchange they get to be absolved of their past sins and be declared squeaky clean. New competitors will need to be perfect from the get-go.

Re:CFTC Orders Coinbase Inc. To Pay $6.5M Penalty by TylerE on Friday March 19, 2021 @10:46PM (#26520370)
Hardly. This only covers activity through summer of 2018.
Re:CFTC Orders Coinbase Inc. To Pay $6.5M Penalty by peteretep on Friday March 19, 2021 @11:49PM (#26520679)
This fine does, but presumably this has come about as part of a wider audit
Re:CFTC Orders Coinbase Inc. To Pay $6.5M Penalty by ac29 on Saturday March 20, 2021 @08:30AM (#26522731)
The point is law enforcement and regulatory agencies move really, really slowly - they generally like to take time building strong cases, even when misconduct is fairly evident. This activity dates back 3-5 years, and is only being publicly announced now. What's happened since then?