News for hackers. Stuff that matters.

A comment on Ghana will no longer sell cocoa to Switzerland. Parent comment

Re:Ghana will no longer sell cocoa to Switzerland by babesh on Friday March 19, 2021 @03:34PM (#26517410)
The 1 child policy is probably a big issue but IP theft is partly how the US industrialized. The textile mills of the North that kicked off industrialization in the US was based off of IP stolen from Britain. In fact, many of the practices that the Chinese are using were also used by the Americans: smuggling plans, hiring key employees, tariffs, etc.

https://www.realclearmarkets.com/articles/2018/07/30/ip_thef...!

http://web.mit.edu/heikki/www/antebellum_tariff_draft1.pdf

[ Parent | on HN ]
Re:Ghana will no longer sell cocoa to Switzerland by fragmede on Friday March 19, 2021 @04:45PM (#26518000)
Even domestically, the reason Hollywood is the center of the film industry is because California was too far from the East coast for patents on moving picture cameras to be effectively enforced.
[ Parent | on HN ]
Re:Ghana will no longer sell cocoa to Switzerland by Andrew_nenakhov on Friday March 19, 2021 @05:08PM (#26518156)
I thought it has more to do with weather, particularly ~300 sunny days per year.
[ Parent | on HN ]
Re:Ghana will no longer sell cocoa to Switzerland by the_af on Friday March 19, 2021 @05:22PM (#26518257)
It was a bit of both. I think I first read about this in Lessig's Free Culture [1], but even Wikipedia mentions some of this: somewhat ironically because of the MPAA's current heavy-handed tactics, Hollywood was founded on piracy and patents infringement. Some moviemakers moved West to explore new territories and climates (Wikipedia mentions D.W. Griffith) but others soon followed suit in order to avoid Edison's patents. It can be argued that Hollywood was made possible by people who broke the law [2]

So Hollywood and the MPAA, who so aggressively pursue what they deem "IP infringement", have more than one skeleton in their closets.

Bear this in mind whenever someone tells you -- as often witnessed here on HN -- "but without copyright there will be no writers" or "art isn't possible without IP laws".

----

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Culture_(book)

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cinema_of_the_United_States#Ri...

[ Parent | on HN ]
Re:Ghana will no longer sell cocoa to Switzerland by Andrew_nenakhov on Friday March 19, 2021 @05:42PM (#26518405)
> "without copyright there will be no writers"

Just recently had a bit of a good laugh about this. I decided to read Caesar's notes on Gallic wars, and downloaded some random .fb2

It turned out to be a preview fragment, which ended with a stern warning that it is illegal to break copyright laws and that this book can be legally purchased via provided link. I'm sure Gaius Julius is very happy with how these guys protect his interests.

[ Parent | on HN ]
Re:Ghana will no longer sell cocoa to Switzerland by elmomle on Friday March 19, 2021 @07:16PM (#26519140)
That's ostensibly for the translator (of course it's more for the publisher). You can get (typically Edwardian-era or earlier) public domain translations, or the original Latin, for free in lots of places.
[ Parent | on HN ]
Re:Ghana will no longer sell cocoa to Switzerland by Andrew_nenakhov on Saturday March 20, 2021 @04:56AM (#26521725)
I read it in russian, and I specially checked that russian translator died almost a hundred years ago.
[ Parent | on HN ]
Re:Ghana will no longer sell cocoa to Switzerland by elmomle on Sunday March 21, 2021 @09:15PM (#26535764)
Ah, yes that was rather Anglocentric of me, apologies. And that's a lousy situation--any idea why that's the case?
[ Parent | on HN ]
Re:Ghana will no longer sell cocoa to Switzerland by madeofmeat on Friday March 19, 2021 @08:55PM (#26519770)
They have a public domain English translation free at gutenberg.org
[ Parent | on HN ]
Re:Ghana will no longer sell cocoa to Switzerland by inglor_cz on Saturday March 20, 2021 @09:21AM (#26523030)
"but without copyright there will be no writers"

Well, without copyright, writers would find it hard to live off their work, but contemporary copyright has outgrown its usefulness and it wasn't writers who pushed for extensions.

Let us get back to the original 14+14 model, but how, against a determined resistance of entrenched interests?

[ Parent | on HN ]
Re:Ghana will no longer sell cocoa to Switzerland by jkepler on Friday March 19, 2021 @05:52PM (#26518492)
Isn't the underlying problem here the idea of Intellectual Property doesn't really correspond to real property? If I have an ax I use to provide lumber to our town and you steal it physically from me, that's theft. But if you see my ax, understand how it works, and make your own to also cut lumber, is that really theft? Or is it net beneficial to the town, as now people have more cut lumber to choose from and perhaps lower prices? However, if I lobby to get an IP law, how does that serve the community? It only protects me from competition.
[ Parent | on HN ]
Re:Ghana will no longer sell cocoa to Switzerland by mpoteat on Friday March 19, 2021 @06:07PM (#26518630)
The theory is that nobody will invest in e.g. researching how to build a complicated lumber cutting machine if they don't have protections against their competitor copying the results.

Let's say this research costs 1 million dollars, and the company bankrolls this via a loan. They build it and are successful, and begin paying it off.

Their competitor copies their idea, and exploits the fact that they have more capital and less debt to buy up more of the market, and end up the winner.

So, under a zero protection scheme it is optimal to wait until your competitor invests in research, and then just steal it. Which is what happens on a geopolitical level where there is no feasible enforcement possible.

[ Parent | on HN ]
Re:Ghana will no longer sell cocoa to Switzerland by kiba on Friday March 19, 2021 @07:41PM (#26519277)
So, under a zero protection scheme it is optimal to wait until your competitor invests in research, and then just steal it. Which is what happens on a geopolitical level where there is no feasible enforcement possible.

Is it such a bad thing? The United States did it in order to industrialize and I would say that's a good thing.

[ Parent | on HN ]
Re:Ghana will no longer sell cocoa to Switzerland by mpoteat on Friday March 19, 2021 @08:10PM (#26519453)
Certainly depends on your utility function and the degree to which the ends justify the means. Is it good to steal from an apothecary to treat your ill wife? etc.

The underlying issue with Pareto optimal scenarios like this is that we end up trapped in a local minima.

I think in a particular case it's important to look at the context. For this, it likely depends on the scale, so in small town Georgiaville it would prevent innovation, but across the world scope its better* for ideas to be free.

*given most mainstream progressive utility functions and non-zero-sum philosophies

[ Parent | on HN ]
Re:Ghana will no longer sell cocoa to Switzerland by imtringued on Saturday March 20, 2021 @09:05AM (#26522932)
Some protection is good but there is this sort of hedonic drive to keep extending protection even though only a certain amount is needed to keep industries alive. At that point it is purely a wealth transfer.
[ Parent | on HN ]
Re:Ghana will no longer sell cocoa to Switzerland by znpy on Saturday March 20, 2021 @04:20AM (#26521620)
One might argue that the us did it in a time where markets weren't really developed on a global scale like they are today, so that comparison is only valid to a certain degree.
[ Parent | on HN ]
Re:Ghana will no longer sell cocoa to Switzerland by inglor_cz on Saturday March 20, 2021 @09:23AM (#26523051)
It depends on how much the invention cost in the first place.

Some inventions are pretty expensive, like mRNA vaccines. If there is no way to profit from them, no one will spend crazy money on the research.

(Notably, mRNA was originally researched by the academic sector, but it did not recognize the importance of the topic and Katalin Karikó had to move to the private sector to finish her work.)

[ Parent | on HN ]