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Re:Satellite imagery shows Northern California kelp forests ... by astrange on Sunday March 14, 2021 @08:20PM (#26461068)
Forcing you to do in particular to do either of these things wouldn’t help. The reason you’re using a car and not walking is cities aren’t built densely enough because California’s land use rules are made to keep the state looking like a 50s sitcom set.

Electric cars are better for families (even in Japan), but having car-shaped cars is still pretty polluting due to road and tire dust, so encouraging micromobility + mass transit would be a better move for the individual.

Re:Satellite imagery shows Northern California kelp forests ... by Ericson2314 on Sunday March 14, 2021 @08:50PM (#26461296)
Amen to that, the sooner people realize some above and below ground trains can solve a number of issues and create much more prosperity, the better.
Re:Satellite imagery shows Northern California kelp forests ... by bluGill on Sunday March 14, 2021 @09:12PM (#26461452)
It would help if the people who realized that also realized that cost is one reason we can't have more. There is no reason that stations have to be large instead of utilitarian (10x the price). There is no reason trains need any operators, much less then 3 often required by law and union contract. There is no reason it takes 24 people to run a TBM (12 is the number in other countries). There is no reason why trains can't run more often. There is no reason "turf wars" mean that two different divisions of the same agency fight each other for limited budget instead of working together for the city.

The above is but a short list of things to attack if you in favor of trains. Note that the above cuts at a lot of things that Democrats - who claim to be in favor of trains hold dear. You will discover that fighting to make trains a better option than cars is harder as a democrat where everyone agrees but wants to put their finger in the pie, than as a republican where everyone isn't interested in trains but might let you get by with a small amount just to keep you quiet (this won't be enough to build a useful system, but it might be enough to prove it can be cost effective)

Re:Satellite imagery shows Northern California kelp forests ... by Ericson2314 on Sunday March 14, 2021 @09:33PM (#26461612)
Why hello, fellow reader of https://transitcosts.com

> You will discover that fighting to make trains a better option than cars is harder as a democrat where everyone agrees but wants to put their finger in the pie, than as a republican where everyone isn't interested in trains but might let you get by with a small amount just to keep you quiet (this won't be enough to build a useful system, but it might be enough to prove it can be cost effective)

And where is train hush money being handed out in the last four years? Pretty sure that's out of the frying pan into the fire.

Re:Satellite imagery shows Northern California kelp forests ... by darksaints on Sunday March 14, 2021 @10:11PM (#26461867)
> You will discover that fighting to make trains a better option than cars is harder as a democrat where everyone agrees but wants to put their finger in the pie, than as a republican where everyone isn't interested in trains but might let you get by with a small amount just to keep you quiet (this won't be enough to build a useful system, but it might be enough to prove it can be cost effective)

This is perfectly exemplified by UTA Trax, which had a humble start in slightly blue SLC, but has expanded outward at an incredibly rapid pace, with approval votes coming from some of the reddest counties in the nation. Building efficiently and cost effectively is quite possibly the best vote-switcher on transit that we could make.

Re:Satellite imagery shows Northern California kelp forests ... by Ericson2314 on Sunday March 14, 2021 @10:48PM (#26462093)
I don't want to diminish that, from a brief skim of wikipedia this looks like a typical American light rail with vast suburban extensions, "park and ride" stations rather than dense development around station.

This sort of transit just allows for further sub-urbanization and car culture when the highways fill up. It doesn't promote cross-sector density (just larger central business districts), and it doesn't reduce the externalities of the American way of living.

To be fair, this is by no means a mistake exclusive to red states. The WMATA in DC, and LIRR and Metro North in NYC all commit the same sin.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bc/Salt_Lak... Guess the mountains hem it in one some sides; that gives me some hope. Maybe someday it will look more like https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/659/32455034626_dc15a3023b_o.j...

Re:Satellite imagery shows Northern California kelp forests ... by darksaints on Sunday March 14, 2021 @11:16PM (#26462262)
You're not wrong, but underfunded transit agencies taking on highly entrenched land use laws in order to build slightly more optimally kinda falls into the category of boiling the ocean. It's not something they control, let alone have any sort of influence over. But what they can control, they did, and for a red state, they have a pretty comprehensive and rapidly growing rail system that is quite enviable compared to much bluer cities like San Jose or Minneapolis.

It should also be noted that Calgary faced similar challenges to SLC, and they optimized for it in similar ways: optimizing for total system length and highest frequencies per dollar spent, and often developing suburban park and ride stations. And over the last 40 years, Calgary has become more dense as a result. It has become one of the highest ridership per mile systems in north america, better than any in the US, besting even a 125 year old line with significant subterranean sections right through the dense core of Boston.

Re:Satellite imagery shows Northern California kelp forests ... by Ericson2314 on Monday March 15, 2021 @12:42PM (#26468254)
Well the transit agency cannot change zoning laws, but they can refuse to build the parking lot.

I will hand it to Calgary though. Reading around, it does look like the job density is in the central business district is exceptionally good for such a late-developed North American city. The park and rides don't dent housing sprawl at all, but at least they allow people to commute to the same place. Hopefully that does create demand for dense housing around the central business district eventually.

Re:Satellite imagery shows Northern California kelp forests ... by bluGill on Monday March 15, 2021 @05:29PM (#26469342)
I don't think refusing to build a parking lot is a good idea. However they should be careful to build it on one side (probably the freeway side knowing how hard it is to put transit anywhere else), so that the other side can develop. They can/should put their stations in places that are at least semi-multi-use as well, meaning the border between zoned commercial and zoned apartments. When/if things get more transit oriented they can sell the parking lot.
Re:Satellite imagery shows Northern California kelp forests ... by Ericson2314 on Monday March 15, 2021 @05:38PM (#26469475)
I mean if it was 1990 sure. But global warming is kinda urgent and I don't really want to wait for the morons with their zoning?

I think at this point we also need to massively raise the gas tax, pay it back as a universal dividend to avoid right-wing revolution. And simultaneously, we need to build a bunch of transit so people trying to win the gas-tax-dividend arbitrage have a valid strategy. Make the demand, make the supply.

Our political situation doesn't allow for that, but I don't really see the choice? Trying to electrify all the cars is perhaps easier on the American psyche, but much less efficient, and will not help with all the non-global-warming major externalities we need to fix nearly as urgently.

Re:Satellite imagery shows Northern California kelp forests ... by bluGill on Monday March 15, 2021 @09:19PM (#26471730)
Fight battles you can win. Your way results in transit nobody rides (because it isn't useful to anyone ) and proves you hate cars, which gets you voted out and your taxes repealed.. if you give them their parking lot there is at least enough that some people ride while you wait the 20 years or so it takes to redevelop the area. Once the area is developed take away the parking lot for more valuable uses.
Re:Satellite imagery shows Northern California kelp forests ... by StavrosK on Sunday March 14, 2021 @08:42PM (#26461238)
"Carbon neutral" isn't the same as "non-polluting". "All" you need to be carbon neutral is to not burn fossil fuels for your energy.
Re:Satellite imagery shows Northern California kelp forests ... by croutonwagon on Sunday March 14, 2021 @10:03PM (#26461818)
So. From a supply chain perspective.

Let’s say you go buy a Tesla or Volt. The cost to charge it at a station or even your house isn’t carbon neutral. It depends on how your local power is generated. In my gas that’s primarily natural gas.

Is the $0.11/kWh truly, not to mention the cost of the battery and all the lithium/magnesium/nickel mining it requires, more “carbon neutral” than a 35 mpg petrol vehicle with all the catalytic converters and whatnot.

In reality the combustion engine pollutants contributors seem to be more shipping related. Diesel boats, diesel trains, diesel 18 wheelers etc.

Re:Satellite imagery shows Northern California kelp forests ... by StavrosK on Sunday March 14, 2021 @10:09PM (#26461851)
> Is the $0.11/kWh truly, not to mention the cost of the battery and all the lithium/magnesium/nickel mining it requires, more “carbon neutral” than a 35 mpg petrol vehicle

Yes. My power company gives me a green energy certificate, which means that all the money I pay for energy goes to green producers.

> the catalytic converters and whatnot.

You're conflating pollution with carbon emissions. The only thing that matters to carbon emissions is mass of fuel burnt.

> In reality the combustion engine pollutants contributors seem to be more shipping related. Diesel boats, diesel trains, diesel 18 wheelers etc.

Same here.

Re:Satellite imagery shows Northern California kelp forests ... by astrange on Monday March 15, 2021 @06:46AM (#26464391)
Burning hydrocarbons can be (more) carbon-neutral if we synthesize them. The reason it's not is that we dig them out of the ground and then don't put them back in the ground afterwards.

Of course we seem to be going for using batteries instead, but this will likely be needed for energy-dense uses like heating and aircraft.

Re:Satellite imagery shows Northern California kelp forests ... by astrange on Sunday March 14, 2021 @08:52PM (#26461308)
Yeah, but we don’t know if this kelp thing is because of CO2 emissions, and tire runoff actually does kill marine life in nearby rivers.
Re:Satellite imagery shows Northern California kelp forests ... by StavrosK on Sunday March 14, 2021 @08:54PM (#26461328)
Certainly, I mean that carbon emissions are generally a bigger problem than pollution, so we should probably prioritize that first.
Re:Satellite imagery shows Northern California kelp forests ... by astrange on Monday March 15, 2021 @12:33AM (#26462656)
Pollution is really bad. Like, it’s way worse than you’d think it is. Air pollution seems to have driven the entire country crazy for most of the 20th century, and if cities are as violent as they were in 1990 then nobody is going to be interested in saving energy by living in them.
Re:Satellite imagery shows Northern California kelp forests ... by sitkack on Sunday March 14, 2021 @09:25PM (#26461554)
You can't ignore local pollution while attempting to drive down global emissions.