I'm not convinced at all that Europe is declining, though I am convinced that China and India are rising (as they bloody well should after the horrible history Europe has given them in recent centuries) though I'm worried that this isn't accompanied by a freer, fairer society in those places, just a richer one. Being richer is a good thing of course; freedom being of limited value to a starving child.
Which leads me to ask what your basis for comparison is? Because I've lived in wealthy parts of the US - much wealthier than anywhere I've lived in Europe - and seen streets paved with metaphorical gold, but I've visited plenty of places in the US that seemed pretty backward, poor, soaked in ignorance and hopelessly broken. When 2 million people in the richest country in the world don't have indoor plumbing then something is wrong with that country's measure of wealth.
I know that Eastern Europe is "killing it" regionally by a mix of good policies, EU funding and geoarbitrage - I've lived there - but European Union as whole is slowly declining.
Yes, we are still the world leader on lifestyle and culture - I don't want to create roots anywhere else - but I don't believe this will be enough to guarantee a bright future for my children.
I'm pretty sure in Asia they see next year will be better then this year. I can see it in my own family members back in Asia. They went from generational housing to each uncle and auntie having their own house, nieces and nephews having finished college or university able to afford a better life style then my aunties and uncles could. While I see my little brother and many others struggling to afford a good enough place to buy or rent because of the fucked up housing markets back here in western Europe.
Meanwhile in Eastern europe is as you describe Asia. My parents live tremendously better than their parents. I live better than my parents. And I'm positive my kid will live better than I do. After that... Fingers crossed I'll see the trend going strong. And that's in pretty much any socioeconomic class. While wealth gap is growing since Soviet era, the poor are living better than Soviet era elite. Both in terms of necessities and leisure.
10 years ago I'd have said Eastern European spirit may turn the ship around. But today I'm not so sure. It feels like too many people got comfy enough and sign off on Western's idea. The sad part is that we're still pretty poor and that comfiness will be gone even faster. Both in terms of wealth and geopolitics.
Is this code for calling West Europe lazy? I surely can't make much sense of what you mean with this phrasing.
> "10 years ago I'd have said Eastern European spirit may turn the ship around. But today I'm not so sure. It feels like too many people got comfy enough and sign off on Western's idea."
And this is a pretty strange statement, calling on something like "Eastern European spirit" to turn something around, and getting "comfy" as a "sign off on Western's idea", both of which you don't describe what you mean with.
Do you care to expand on those points?
Meanwhile Western Europe. Feels much more.. complacent? if that's the right word. Looking from the East, West looks like smug underachievers riding on forefathers' fame.
Look, I came from Brazil, working 10-12h/day was common for most of my 10 years career there. It doesn't bring prosperity, it doesn't get rewarded, working hard and not taking breaks is no measure of success. As much as you think this is the way to emulate because of US's wealth I'd say to think again about this bold assumption, you are being extremely reductionist and topping it off with some xenophobia. I don't like it.
And I was talking about true hard working, not butt-in-seat theatre. And we sure got rewarded here in Eastern Europe. Just look at statistics comparing east/west in 1990 and today.
How much would you like to be called one of the numerous Eastern European stereotypes?
You didn't get rewarded simply by working hard, go check Latin America (Mexico, Brazil, Argentina, etc.) and see how fucking hard the people there work, which, unlike in the EU, doesn't have support from the US, the country that extracts most of the value and productivity from these nations.
There are a lot of geopolitical and economical factors for the rise of the East in Europe, one of these factors is exactly by being included in the EU and participating on the free market with richer nations, that propped up the economy of the bloc as a whole... Stop feeding into this bullshit narrative, it's dangerous.
TBH a lot of Eastern european stereotypes are truth. Unfortunately we did export a lot of criminals and welfare seekers. We joke all the time how after joining EU streets became safe the next weekend. In reality it took a bit longer :)
It's funny how you want to read that I'm saying that people were working hard. No, I'm saying that people work(ed?) hard and smart. Maybe sometimes too smart skewing regulations.
It's not bullshit narrative, it's your xenophobia :) See, I can play this game too.
Now on a more serious note, sure it's not just hard/smart work. There're a lot of reasons. For example, leading up to WW2, there was no big discrepancy between east and west. When Soviet era was over, nothing was stopping East from bouncing back to where it should be.
I don't see how stating that West is more rich and people take it for granted and happy with what they have is "hateful". I'm not saying "you fools live on our hard work". I'm saying "we're catching up and fast and that's awesome. But that's partially on you, because you seem to be not trying to level up anymore". I wish all europeans would get more hungry and get ready to take on Asia.
Is wishing for people to become more active/hungry/whateveryouwanttocallit "hate"?
I absolutely agree with you here.
> Most Europeans know that Europe is declining and sinking slowly.
Sorry, you lost me here. Outside of the nationalist far right, I never hear people saying anything of the sort. How are we "declining and sinking"?
You don’t have to be a far-right nationalist in order to have an objective look at the situation in EU, although I understand your temptation to resort to such low-effort arguments, it’s fashionable after all.
As a non far-right European, the EU is falling behind by failing to drive any tech innovation, by relying on non-EU countries for vaccine production, by not importing any external tech talent by having extremely unattractive wages in the tech sector. Every major tech innovation happened outside of EU, and this is something I’m not proud about. If your only metric for success is having decent public healthcare and social benefits, then I guess EU is doing fine, but I’m skeptical this will do us any good in the long run.
Sure, but I didn't say that. I said those are the only ones I hear making unsubstantiated alarmist claims about Europe, and/or their respective home countries, "declining and sinking". I have no problem with people pointing out specific problems, like you did with wages and tech innovations. This opens up for constructive debate. Screaming that we're doomed does not.
What is the metric you are using to gauge innovation in tech in the EU?
The part that made it work, a lipid envelope that keeps the thing running at non cryogenic temperatures, doesn't sound very impressive (though it is), is a Belgian company (Dutch, although I believe located in the French part of the country).
This vaccine, aside from (part of) it's financing is very much European ...
On the short term it may be true. On the long term you need a strong GDP to sustain quality of life.
COVID showed Europeans how dependent they are from China industry and US tech. Quality of life is still an order of magnitude better than in most countries in the world but I don't believe it will remain like this ad infinitum. Most Europeans know that Europe is declining and sinking slowly.