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Re:Activists who embrace nuclear power by slfnflctd on Sunday February 21, 2021 @02:53PM (#26216521)
> Attaching four hours of storage to a solar generation farm, just enough to get through the duck curve, is now slightly cheaper than coal

This completely ignores scenarios of extended cloud cover, cold temperatures and low wind (somewhat like we just saw in Texas) where properly winterized baseline power would be the only way to keep everything up the whole way through.

Barring future unknown tech, we will always need either nuclear or natural gas if we want five nines of uptime in our electrical power. There is just no practical way currently to build enough storage across the grid to maintain 100% uptime during a week or more of reduced renewable generation.

Re:Activists who embrace nuclear power by smallnamespace on Sunday February 21, 2021 @03:08PM (#26216639)
If your grid covers a large region and you have sufficient transmission, then somewhere, there is excess electricity from wind/solar that you can bring in.

Remember, we're talking about a world where building renewables to 4x peak demand would be actually economical.

This works on the same principle as an insurance market: it's likely that even at 4x capacity, your local solar farm has a few cloudy days. It's highly unlikely that your entire regional grid generation falls below demand. That probability falls (super?-)exponentially in the size of the region.

Taking a step back: yes, renewable power is intermittent and you need electricity here, now. Either 1) transmit from elsewhere, 2) store locally, or 3) supplement with a stable source (nuclear / thermal). The choice simply comes down to cost (to provide a given level of reliability).

The most efficient solution is likely to do all of the above, taking local conditions into account. Adjusting for local conditions is one thing that a (well-managed) market helps tackle.

Re:Activists who embrace nuclear power by cbmuser on Sunday February 21, 2021 @05:27PM (#26217924)
> It's no longer cost competitive, and places like China that adopt a "let's try everything and see what works best" approach have heavily pulled back on nuclear.

When it’s night in Germany, it’s night in the rest of Europe.

When there is no wind in Germany, there isn’t usually much more wind across Europe.

Please take some look at actual electricity generating data for Germany (see smard.de) and find out why your assumptions are not correct.

Re:Activists who embrace nuclear power by cycomanic on Sunday February 21, 2021 @07:09PM (#26218742)
You should have a look at the relevant literature. There have been several calculations made on how much overprovisioning is needed to run the grid only on wind, hydro and solar. It is significant but doable.

Also have a look here https://www.windy.com/?46.529,20.479,4 and look at the variation across Europe, especially if you include offshore wind.

Re:Activists who embrace nuclear power by EricE on Monday February 22, 2021 @02:19PM (#26229120)
>If your grid covers a large region

Like a belt of solar panels around the equator? Works for Dyson Sphere Program but that's a game. As big as the US is, for CONUS the entire continent is in the dark for significant portions of the day. It doesn't get more intermittent than that!

> and you have sufficient transmission,

Well duh. And assuming zero transmission loss. Or enough resources to overcome transmission loss and still be economically viable.

Quite a bit of hand waving there.

Re:Activists who embrace nuclear power by sudosysgen on Sunday February 21, 2021 @03:30PM (#26216868)
This is a dangerous and wrong assumption. Weather events can have high area. What do you do if a hurricane comes at the same time as high cloud cover?
Re:Activists who embrace nuclear power by Daho0n on Sunday February 21, 2021 @04:36PM (#26217478)
What do you do if you have to shut down the nuclear power plant in bad weather for some reason? Build a new one as a backup? There's always a weak link if you want to find one, nuclear, wind or whatever.
Re:Activists who embrace nuclear power by cbmuser on Sunday February 21, 2021 @05:30PM (#26217952)
> What do you do if you have to shut down the nuclear power plant in bad weather for some reason?

You don’t. If your plant is properly designed, you’re absolutely immune to any extreme weather conditions.

Heck, we have nuclear-powered vehicles sent beyond our galaxy and they’re still working.

Nuclear power is literally the only form of energy we have that can work under virtually all environmental conditions.

Nuclear fission works even in vacuum.

Re:Activists who embrace nuclear power by dismayedjim on Sunday February 21, 2021 @06:53PM (#26218608)
It doesn't just have to be designed right, it has to be built right. Like Fukishima where the design engineer resigned during construction over how low the sea wall was built. The sister plant which was closer to the epicenter had the proper sea wall and as such it was totally fine despite the higher waves.

The problem with nuclear is we can't have it until we have eliminated corruption. In that industry it can lead to a literal nuclear meltdown.

Re:Activists who embrace nuclear power by sudosysgen on Sunday February 21, 2021 @07:08PM (#26218740)
You have to make the construction process transparent and verifiable enough and then these issues can be removed. It's not a given, but it certainly is doable.
Re:Activists who embrace nuclear power by epistasis on Sunday February 21, 2021 @03:41PM (#26216957)
You plan for the worst case, same as we do now.
Re:Activists who embrace nuclear power by sudosysgen on Sunday February 21, 2021 @03:53PM (#26217075)
Sure, but solar plus wind does not allow the flexibility to plan for the worst case and come out ahead.
Re:Activists who embrace nuclear power by Nasrudith on Sunday February 21, 2021 @04:18PM (#26217301)
Wind across enough longitude is impossible to not exist at all given temperature differentials creating wind and the rotation of the earth. Wind compliments solar beautifully because things cool off at night from the lack of sun making it produce more power then. If the earth no longer rotates across the axis or the sun goes out the lack of power is irrelevant to in that worsr case scenario.
Re:Activists who embrace nuclear power by sudosysgen on Sunday February 21, 2021 @05:15PM (#26217813)
This is not sufficient. Wind doesn't have to not increase at all, it just has to be down somewhat, or be too high.
Re:Activists who embrace nuclear power by merb on Sunday February 21, 2021 @04:56PM (#26217647)
you know that after a hurricane it's way harder to restart a nuclear power plant than a wind turbine right? it's incredible hard to power a nuclear plant if your grid is destroyed. basically you can't start a nuclear power plant with no power at all.
Re:Activists who embrace nuclear power by sudosysgen on Sunday February 21, 2021 @05:17PM (#26217836)
Nuclear reactors never completely turn off. They have generators that can supply the necessary power to run baseline systems and to restart them at any time.
Re:Activists who embrace nuclear power by merb on Monday February 22, 2021 @03:55AM (#26222266)
that is not true, when there are disasters they sometimes get shutdown, to not have another catastrophe.

and even then just "restarting" it, is not as easy as restarting software.

Re:Activists who embrace nuclear power by tonyedgecombe on Monday February 22, 2021 @04:59AM (#26222668)
We know from Fukishima that generators fail.
Re:Activists who embrace nuclear power by rhodozelia on Sunday February 21, 2021 @08:16PM (#26219418)
I don’t foresee anybody paying for all this over built over provisioned solar/wind generation and transmission. I suppose if it has to be overbuilt 4x to be as reliable as the power system we have now then my power bill will be 4x more.

When people quote $1/W for solar generation it really should be $4/W because you have to build 4x as much and then add another ... infinite amount for increasing the size of the transmission system by 4x too so that areas that have sun can transmit to areas that have none. All possible just expensive.

Re:Activists who embrace nuclear power by epistasis on Sunday February 21, 2021 @03:04PM (#26216612)
If I were in Texas last week, I would have loved to have a home solar system with a battery that let me island from the grid. This is definitely practical and happening even at today's high prices.

In a decade, ERCOT will look nothing like it does today. It will have massive amounts of solar and storage, and even more wind. This is replacing gas plants as they age out.

Re:Activists who embrace nuclear power by jfubxyb on Sunday February 21, 2021 @03:27PM (#26216837)
A buddy of mine has solar panels. During the storm they got covered in ice and snow, and generated about 180 watt hours in a 24 hour period
Re:Activists who embrace nuclear power by epistasis on Sunday February 21, 2021 @03:42PM (#26216973)
This is not a typical experience, from what I've heard. But for exceptional cases, in addition to fixed storage in our homes, we should be able to use our EV batteries for items of exceptional need, as they typically can handle 3-4 days worth of energy needs.
Re:Activists who embrace nuclear power by selimthegrim on Sunday February 21, 2021 @08:54PM (#26219794)
You would think that but some municipalities like New Orleans are addicted to the franchise taxes from new gas plants and roll over for the utilities (I am speaking about the South in general)
Re:Activists who embrace nuclear power by ip26 on Sunday February 21, 2021 @03:41PM (#26216964)
Will we actually need five nines out of renewables any time soon? We have the option of hanging on to old fossil fuel plants as emergency power for many decades to come. Peaker plants already perform a similar sort of role.

Our CO2 goals won’t be compromised by running emergency power off fossil fuel once every decade or two.

Re:Activists who embrace nuclear power by rhodozelia on Sunday February 21, 2021 @08:27PM (#26219547)
keeping old fossil plants sitting idle but in working order is possible but will cost nearly as much as generating at full capacity, minus the cost of fuel.

Imagine a car that sits in a garage and once a decade you take it out and thrash it. Machines degrade just from time not necessarily wear as rubber and gaskets become brittle, metal rusts, capacitors leak, fuel degrades, algae grows, rats chew on whatever they can, shafts and bearings and motors seize or get flat spots from sitting.

Look at Texas and their fleet of plants that didn’t start when they were needed. Any machine that is not running is likely to stay not running.

Re:Activists who embrace nuclear power by theodric on Sunday February 21, 2021 @03:14PM (#26216705)
How about not having five nines, and just finding a way to live within that envelope?
Re:Activists who embrace nuclear power by throwawayboise on Sunday February 21, 2021 @03:19PM (#26216759)
Yep. Cheaper than all of this is having a few blankets, a camp stove, and a week's worth of rice and beans on hand.
Re:Activists who embrace nuclear power by YarickR2 on Sunday February 21, 2021 @04:09PM (#26217213)
Potable water, flushable toilet, heat insulated pipes.