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Re:Statement on New York Times Article by cowmoo728 on Saturday February 13, 2021 @11:43PM (#26129756)
This is nothing new from them. The NYT, as the "paper of record" for America, has always been mired in politics and power. One of my favorite pieces from NYT is their blistering condemnation of MLK after his famous anti-Vietnam speech.

Never forget that there is a side that benefits politically from telling you that the NYT is being taken over by "woke radical authoritarians". The NYT is a political organization playing politics, just as it has been since 1851. I still mostly respect them because they tend to report facts accurately and mostly follow the ideal of journalistic integrity better than many other media outlets. But there are certain topics now, just as always, where their prevailing politics shines through loud and clear.

https://www.nytimes.com/1967/04/14/archives/dr-king-and-the-...

Re:Statement on New York Times Article by vinay_ys on Sunday February 14, 2021 @01:09AM (#26130091)
A publication can be politically titled to one side and still be factually accurate and stay true to journalistic integrity principles (or at least that's what I want).

With social media and modern communication/publication mechanisms, it is much easier for individuals who know the ground truth to bring their perspective to the fore and poke holes into a major publication's journalistic flaws. This wasn't possible just 10 years ago.

In the case of NYT, their political tilt is very clear (that's ok) but their journalistic integrity is being called into question more and more (that's problematic).

Re:Statement on New York Times Article by ttoomm28 on Sunday February 14, 2021 @09:11AM (#26132521)
Not sure tilted would be the correct way to describe it, more lopsided.
Re:Statement on New York Times Article by alexilliamson on Sunday February 14, 2021 @10:53AM (#26133343)
I think tilted is better, unless you can somehow be titled towards center. The BS they've published attacking Bernie and AOC should feel familiar to their attacks on the right.
Re:Statement on New York Times Article by forgingahead on Sunday February 14, 2021 @01:19AM (#26130143)
This seems to be contradictory. It's ok to be politically biased, but still factually accurate for things that fit their political bias? The NYT and others like it go out of their way to pretend they have no political bias, using the passive voice to give authority to slanted reporting which favours one "team" over another.

Being a partisan mouthpiece isn't itself a problem, the issue is when it pretends (and many of its supporters repeatedly and falsely claim) that items described in the paper are more objective and carries greater weight than those in your average political party's weekly newsletter.

Re:Statement on New York Times Article by JohnStrangeII on Sunday February 14, 2021 @06:26AM (#26131419)
> It's ok to be politically biased, but still factually accurate for things that fit their political bias?

Everybody is biased. You, me, and every journalist on earth. Of course, that's okay. The NYT also does not go out of their way to "...pretend they have no political bias."

What is important is to be able to understand the difference between news and editorials (including editorial decisions), but sadly more and more people seem to lose grasp of this basic distinction. This may be a sign of the negative consequences of the politization of many points.

Re:Statement on New York Times Article by Retric on Sunday February 14, 2021 @02:41AM (#26130429)
Not all partisan mouthpieces are equivalent. You can be factually accurate while leading people to the wrong conclusion. However, it’s much less work to find someone willing to lie, and much harder to detect lies than misleading statements.

Journalistic integrity is therefore critical when selecting which biased sources to pay attention to.

Re:Statement on New York Times Article by makomk on Sunday February 14, 2021 @06:20AM (#26131384)
Leading people to believe things that are wildly untrue using statements that are technically not lies does as much damage to society as doing it any other way, in my opinion. Sure, in theory smart people might be able to spot that what the article is trying to convince them of isn't backed up by the facts it uses - but in practice they almost never seem to, not even other journalists. (Here in the UK, the BBC seems to be a bit of a repeat offender - some other partisan rag publishes something designed to lead people to an untrue conclusion without technically lying, and then the BBC just outright repeats the untrue claim.)
Re:Statement on New York Times Article by JohnStrangeII on Sunday February 14, 2021 @06:38AM (#26131504)
I've noticed this thought pattern with many people who argue against freedom of speech and for tighter control of media or "canceling" them recently:

1. The arguer claims that negative consequences follow from the exercising of free speech, in this case NYT right to freely chose the topics they write about.

2. The alleged consequence is that people are made to believe wrong or false things (where "wrong" and "false" are defined by the arguer).

3. The arguer portrays himself at the same the victim of those media and the person who knows better than those media and therefore can decide between wrong and right, true and false better than the accused media.

4. The arguer presents no evidence of knowing better and when you ask them about their sources, they tend to be highly problematic, based on blogging and websites who often do not even employ journalists.

Paraphrase: "I know better than large group of people X but everybody else is mislead by X" - I don't think so.

Re:Statement on New York Times Article by makomk on Sunday February 14, 2021 @11:09AM (#26133480)
Apparently, you're so keen on attacking "this thought pattern" that the fact it bears no resemblance to what I said doesn't matter.
Re:Statement on New York Times Article by JohnStrangeII on Sunday February 21, 2021 @06:46AM (#26212764)
On the contrary your original comment exemplified the thought pattern very well. I fully understand why you claim it doesn't, though.
Re:Statement on New York Times Article by pclmulqdq on Sunday February 14, 2021 @08:20AM (#26132172)
Here's an alternative form of the "NYT/CNN should be canceled" argument: they should be held to the same standard as a private citizen when they behave poorly.

If you write a blog post that doxxes a prominent figure and link to it from Facebook and Twitter, you are going to get banned from those platforms. The NYT can apparently do this with impunity, and calls for canceling other people and organizations who do this.

In US law, there is a different standard for libel against "public figures" than against other people. The NYT gets to take advantage of this much looser libel law whenever they write a hit piece because they can argue that anyone who does something "newsworthy" is de-facto a public figure.

As far as I have seen, the "cancel NYT" crowd is arguing that the NYT should be held to the standards that it pushes into others and obviously doesn't follow.

Re:Statement on New York Times Article by JohnStrangeII on Sunday February 21, 2021 @06:49AM (#26212781)
In almost all cases I can think of I'm also against canceling individuals, so I agree with you. If NYT openly spread hate speech or called for murder and violence, then they should be "canceled" (boycotted).
Re:Statement on New York Times Article by Gene_Parmesan on Sunday February 14, 2021 @05:24AM (#26131069)
You used the term "biased," not them -- just to be clear. Which way a publication leans can be determined by things that have nothing directly to do with integrity or truth telling -- which stories they cover, for instance. In practice, lean often comes along with audience. Like any publication, news outlets have audiences, and the interests of that audience group will determine what stories it covers and how it covers them. This can be done with full journalistic integrity; in fact, it's harder (and perhaps impossible) for a publication to have zero political lean.

Political lean != acting as a mouthpiece.

Do also please note that your personal political leanings will determine whether you view the reporting of any publication as unethically biased or not. No matter which sides we're talking about, what one party reports as truth, another will hear as politically motivated.

Re:Statement on New York Times Article by rendall on Sunday February 14, 2021 @05:28AM (#26131091)
> Never forget that there is a side that benefits politically from telling you that the NYT is being taken over by "woke radical authoritarians"

There is always "a side that benefits politically" from literally every statement. What is clear, irrespective of the side that benefits politically from stating it: the NYT is willing to use its influence to distort the political opinions of its readers, using innuendo and cherrypicked facts.

Those who look to the NYT (and The Washington Post) for accurate facts are literally (mis)guided into holding a specific political opinion, and defending that opinion even against facts that would rationally moderate that opinion.

I am as certain as stone that most people who read the NYT will forever associate Scott Alexander Siskind with white supremacy, conservatism, and anti-woke ideology because of that hit piece; for these people, this will be a fact. For them "Never forget that there is a side that benefits politically from calling that article a 'hit piece'" is a statement that actually has meaning, and they will operate on that assumption. His Wikipedia page will be inundated with editors who insist that the NYT interpretation is "true" while Scott's blog is "opinion", and will dutifully and duly note these interpretations as facts onto his Wikipedia entry. For these people, reading and discussing Scott Alexander will be tantamount to supporting white supremacy, and so a whole encyclopedia of delightful, thoughtful inquiry will be foreclosed.

It is reprehensible, and I cannot in future take anyone who cites the NYT without caution as a serious person who actually understands their world.

Re:Statement on New York Times Article by DubiousPusher on Sunday February 14, 2021 @03:16AM (#26130552)
This is similar to arguments I frequently make about the paper. The reason it has such standing as it does is because it was a mast of Northeast elite hedgemony. I mean this more in a sociological sense than in a true dynastic political sense. The Northeast had been thought for very long to have the best schools, culture, technology, leadership and values.

There was a time when that culture was not just dominant among elite circles but often revered by everyday people as something to live up to. As much as the 80s, 90s and on were seemingly about the decline of that power nexus, the institutions retained a lot of mystique and fascination.

That ideal of American life is in a tailspin. Norman Rockwell is more a punchline than a comfort to people. The nation's opinions aren't filtered through New York TV personalities any more.

The paper has weakend and that has allowed the social agreement about it to change. Before if you expressed a negative opinion about such a paper it was mostly washed away in a consistent wave of accolade. If disagreement always meets reproach it is hard for it to spread. Agreement is an innoculatiom against criticism.

Re:Statement on New York Times Article by rootsudo on Sunday February 14, 2021 @02:10PM (#26135156)
I can see this. I'd like to read up more on it, any good sources?
Re:Statement on New York Times Article by foldr on Sunday February 14, 2021 @07:03AM (#26131662)
> Northeast elite hedgemony

This. Housing associations in the Northeast are getting completely out of control. Whatever happened to people trimming their own hedges in the style they see fit?

Re:Statement on New York Times Article by Lammy on Sunday February 14, 2021 @03:56AM (#26130718)
> The NYT, as the "paper of record" for America, has always been mired in politics and power. One of my favorite pieces from NYT is their blistering condemnation of MLK after his famous anti-Vietnam speech.

https://www.hfsbooks.com/books/the-rising-clamor-hadley/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Mockingbird

http://carlbernstein.com/magazine_cia_and_media.php

"The Agency’s relationship with the [New York] Times was by far its most valuable among newspapers" v(._. )v

[dead]
Re:Statement on New York Times Article by taeric on Sunday February 14, 2021 @02:07AM (#26130312)
This seems a silly line to toe that accomplishes nothing. Worse, it feels in bad faith.

The crowd is constantly crying foul. And often shouting noise for the sake of being noisy. As such, it is all too easy for any supposed side to claim that the crowd is intrinsically party of the other sides.

To that end, did this person make particular claims that others have to reveal who they are? If not, I'm not clear on how this was hypocritical. Are there inconsistencies in the crowd? Absolutely. But, they could be easily ascribed to the side you appear to be taking up, as well.

Re:Statement on New York Times Article by panarky on Sunday February 14, 2021 @01:12PM (#26134606)
> they could be easily ascribed to the side you appear to be taking up

1) Your argument is whataboutism at its finest.

2) I'm not taking a side in favor of establishment journalism.

3) I'm showing that leaders of the anti-cancel-culture movement are themselves more than willing to intimidate, suppress and cancel the free speech of anyone who criticizes them.

4) Either you're in favor of unrestricted free speech for everyone, or you're not.

Re:Statement on New York Times Article by taeric on Sunday February 14, 2021 @05:22PM (#26136828)
My point was more that the subjects of this odd battle are not the actors in it. Such that the line you are drawing with the context you are drawing it in, feels in bad faith.

From all I have seen, which I confess is not everything, The blogger was asking for basic courtesy to not be named such that their practice could stay easily separate.

For my part, I care more for unpersecuted speech. I don't like the active screaming culture, but I can't bring myself to feel that someone should be able to have consequence free speech, either. Such that most of this debate is around gotcha moments that are people yelling at someone to reach the crowd.

It gets muddy, because I absolutely believe we have to allow people to be wrong. But I don't think we should tolerate active lying and gas lighting with deceptive rhetorical tricks that punish courage in openly exploring the boundaries of your knowledge.

Re:Statement on New York Times Article by kazinator on Sunday February 14, 2021 @01:47PM (#26134940)
If you're in favor of unrestricted free speech for everyone, it necessarily, logically means:

- you oppose "cancel culture";

- you're okay with white supremacists having access to audiences via platforms, if someone is willing to provide them with that.

Intimidation and suppression cannot be avoided; they go hand in hand with having any sort of rules.

For instance, the law against stealing uses intimidation and suppression: people are intimidated against stealing with the threat of jail sentences, and offenders are suppressed with actual imprisonment.

You can't have guarantees of freedom of speech written in law without the intimidation and suppression being written into the same law: there have to be negative consequences for a law breaker infringing on someone else's constitutionally granted freedom of speech, which are written and enforced, in order for the law to have meaning.

Re:Statement on New York Times Article by panarky on Sunday February 14, 2021 @04:28PM (#26136433)
If you scream about private platforms canceling speech you agree with, and then you intimidate and suppress other private platforms when they publish speech you don't agree with, that puts the lie to your ostensible unlimited-free-speech principles.
Re:Statement on New York Times Article by kazinator on Sunday February 14, 2021 @07:10PM (#26137551)
What if I criticize platforms canceling speech I disagree with, and don't intimidate anyone?

You've built a strawman model of a free speech advocate and are focusing on that. There may be some real life personalities who call themselves free speech advocates who resemble that strawman, but it's still a strawman.