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Re:What you can learn about medieval Europe if you focus on ... by ashtonkem on Friday February 12, 2021 @12:56AM (#26111110)
It’s important to emphasize that feudalism is fundamentally a transactional system. What the nobility had to offer peasants was safety. In the absence of the Roman imperial system, binding yourself to a local lord who could raise men at arms and a small castle to protect you and your family is a rational decision. I wouldn’t go so far as saying that feudalism is good, but it’s at least understandable when viewed that way.

Of course late feudalism became extra intolerable once kings stopped protecting peasants and started pulling them into new wars instead.

Re:What you can learn about medieval Europe if you focus on ... by mustacheemperor on Friday February 12, 2021 @02:06AM (#26111349)
A small castle was also an ideal location from which to terrorize and pillage the surrounding countryside, so not too unlike transacting safety for your store from the local mob.
Re:What you can learn about medieval Europe if you focus on ... by CaptArmchair on Friday February 12, 2021 @03:50AM (#26111790)
Historian here. That's a generalization. Manor lords did not "terrorize and pillage" the surrounding countryside.

Have you read the article? I can tell you it's a correct summary of an established views on medieval society, such as it is.

A common misconception is to view medieval serfs, free peasants and wage laborers as "oppressed masses" from a modern perspective, colored with romantic glasses from 19th century tales such as Robin Hood or Ivan Hoe. That's just incorrect.

Sure, there were plenty of peasant revolts (Jacquerie - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacquerie) against the nobility. Both those were generally not against the foundations of the societal system from which manor lords derived their authority, but rather prompted by the precarious living conditions these groups found themselves in.

People didn't revolt because they felt "oppressed or terrorized", they would revolt when they got too hungry or felt unprotected.

The Jacquerie happened against the backdrop of the 100 years war. Warbands consisting of unemployed English, German and Spanish mercenaries roamed the French countryside. French nobility was pretty much powerless to do anything at the time. That's what prompted the lower classes, who felt unprotected, to engage in a violent uprising.

Most of the times, the legal framework which governed the relationship with a manor lord wasn't questioned since that's what provided a sense of stability and order.

Also, the "medieval age" spans 1.000 years if you use commonly accepted termini ab quo / ad quem (476 - 1453). But manorialism itself extended well into the pre-modern age up to the French Revolution and, depending on where you lived, well into the 19th century (Russia, serfdom was abolished in 1861). It certainly wasn't a catch all system: there were many variations and adaptations.

Re:What you can learn about medieval Europe if you focus on ... by hoseja on Friday February 12, 2021 @04:53AM (#26112026)
Isn't that a little bit like saying the mob doesn't terrorize people when they know what's good for them?
Re:What you can learn about medieval Europe if you focus on ... by CaptArmchair on Friday February 12, 2021 @07:56AM (#26113124)
No.

Because the same argument could be made about literally any authority. Whether it's an autocratic rule, a modern democratic state, a feudal lord or a mob boss.

What makes all the difference is how "good" gets defined. You, I and the next person will likely have differing opinions on that. And I'm pretty sure that the medieval precariat and nobility will have an entirely different perspective on that as well.

Medieval times weren't lawless times either. The legal framework at the time was based on customary laws which eventually evolved and coalesced into the formal legal systems we know today. Common Law as it first originated in England is rooted in such customary laws.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Customary_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_law#Origins https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manorial_court

As far as "terror" is concerned: the notion of "human rights" is quite modern and only started to become widespread during the late 18th century. Torture, corporal and capital punishment were par for the course in severe criminal cases.

These weren't times where one enjoyed the same freedoms as one does today either. But that doesn't mean people were constantly and randomly subjected to horrible fates at the slightest perceived transgression either.

Moreover, rather inhumane methods of asserting and delivering justice rooted in Frankish, Germanic, Saxon or Nordic traditions were rooted out rather early. Trial by ordeal was abolished by the Church in the early 13th century, for instance.

As I said, we're discussing over 1.000 years of history. And depending on the time and location, you'd be more or less at risk of finding yourself at the tentative mercy of authority such as it ruled.

Re:What you can learn about medieval Europe if you focus on ... by bennysonething on Friday February 12, 2021 @03:07AM (#26111608)
Exactly, it was a protection racket. And like all protection brackets some people romanticize them (I've come across this view multiple time in my home town, Belfast, where paramilitaries have offered this "service" to small businesses).

Also it's worth pointing out that literacy rates across Europe plummeted as the Roman empire fell apart. I read that even Charlemagne "struggled with his letters".

Re:What you can learn about medieval Europe if you focus on ... by Bayart on Friday February 12, 2021 @11:43PM (#26121456)
Charlemagne struggled with writing the incredibly arcane Merovingian script [1]. That's the very reason he came up with the Carolingian script [2] the very print script you're reading this message with is descended from and the reason why he implemented school reforms.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merovingian_script

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carolingian_minuscule

Re:What you can learn about medieval Europe if you focus on ... by bennysonething on Saturday February 13, 2021 @12:21PM (#26124912)
Ah well that's interesting, thanks.
Re:What you can learn about medieval Europe if you focus on ... by Bayart on Friday February 12, 2021 @11:14PM (#26121347)
Why would you terrorize your own workforce and pillage your own assets ?

Feudalism was largely rooted in the Late Roman fiscal system that incentivized industrialized agriculture with large estates and self-sufficient villas in Gaul and Britain. When imperial authority failed they became political forces, and the regional military forces started acting out as peace-breaker and eventually became sovereign polities (the so-called barbarian kingdoms).

Nowadays historians have become increasingly suspicious of Late Roman land-owners, as there are quite a few known cases of families switching from seemingly Latin names to seemingly Germanic ones.

The Medieval castle's just a villa with a military streak. The purpose isn't as much pillaging the direct surroundings as it is to protect your assets from the next land-owner over.

Re:What you can learn about medieval Europe if you focus on ... by ashtonkem on Friday February 12, 2021 @02:48AM (#26111516)
Bit of both, I’m sure.

I would also bet that if the peasants had a sufficiently thorough history, they would probably hate first peasants to have entered into serfdom for protection. While that might have seemed like a good idea right after the fall of Rome, it probably looked less good a few centuries later.

Re:What you can learn about medieval Europe if you focus on ... by ummonk on Friday February 12, 2021 @03:25AM (#26111693)
Yup. To the point that guilds in the late Middle Ages started recruiting their own militias to protect their trade from "nobility" (i.e. thugs with castles).
Re:What you can learn about medieval Europe if you focus on ... by NoZZz on Friday February 12, 2021 @06:28AM (#26112508)
Would that be similar to buying security software to keep the hackers out?
Re:What you can learn about medieval Europe if you focus on ... by pyrale on Friday February 12, 2021 @04:19AM (#26111896)
> What the nobility had to offer peasants was safety.

I believe the main offering was pain. Submission was a good way to avoid it, and peasants were not stupid enough to pass on it.

On the other hand, our definition makes it look like the relation was consensual, and a good deal for everyone involved.

Re:What you can learn about medieval Europe if you focus on ... by throwaway2245 on Friday February 12, 2021 @06:22AM (#26112479)
> What the nobility had to offer peasants was safety.

The purpose of the article, as I read it, is to identify that this claim was written into history by the nobility.

Re:What you can learn about medieval Europe if you focus on ... by watwut on Friday February 12, 2021 @02:46AM (#26111508)
Peasant did not bound himself to castle. Peasant was bound to castle by whoever ruled the place and decided to assign this or that person to administer the land.

Peasants did not had all that much say in that choice.

Re:What you can learn about medieval Europe if you focus on ... by ashtonkem on Friday February 12, 2021 @02:54AM (#26111543)
I didn’t say they bound themselves to a castle, I said they bound themselves to someone who could raise a castle.

And I’m sure the first peasants had some choice. Later ones ... not so much.

Re:What you can learn about medieval Europe if you focus on ... by killtimeatwork on Friday February 12, 2021 @03:26AM (#26111696)
At least in Poland, in the later centuries, it was pretty much slavery. Escaped peasants were hunted across the country. The punishments for escape were severe, and sometimes included mutilations which precluded the escapees from running but didn't hurt their farming abilities.

Peasants weren't exactly property like for example in the US, but in practice were bought and sold with the land (number of people living on a land was a large part of valuation) and could be mistreated or killed with no legal recourse.

Re:What you can learn about medieval Europe if you focus on ... by stereolambda on Friday February 12, 2021 @05:04AM (#26112071)
Not saying that peasants in Poland-Lithuania were in an enviable position, but this line of comparison is advanced by some popular non-historians: I'd say, to get some "cool" surface analogies to the US. Slavery would be more if there were an option of taking or leaving your peasants with property as you like. It's hard to imagine for the nobility to ignore the manpower in valuation. And there was still some actual slavery in Lithuania (small scale) and Russia, and also if you'd be kidnapped by Tatars and sold somewhere in the Ottoman Empire. The latter was a fairly common thing in some parts of the country.

Peasants, as opposed to slaves, were integrated into the civil society, although on very disadvantageous terms. Even on private land, they had their own judicial "councils" (look up 'sąd dominialny'), of course entirely on the mercy of the lord in practice. (There was also the state/crown land with marginally better conditions.)

All this didn't stray qualitatively from the broad Eastern European baseline. A Russian, Prussian or Hungarian noble wouldn't get punished for killing his peasant either, unless he'd seriously screw up his relations with the local regime. A French one pre-1789 would have to play his cards right. PLC got much flak in the period for peasant oppression because 1. it often didn't have raw political power to distract from it 2. there was the perceived hypocrisy in its political system, very loud about liberty, equality etc.

Re:What you can learn about medieval Europe if you focus on ... by killtimeatwork on Friday February 12, 2021 @06:10AM (#26112414)
Great comment, thanks!
Re:What you can learn about medieval Europe if you focus on ... by watwut on Friday February 12, 2021 @04:06AM (#26111841)
> I didn’t say they bound themselves to a castle, I said they bound themselves to someone who could raise a castle.

Except as I told, they did not made that choice. People who could raise the castle decided by themselves where they want castles. Castles were military and administrative buildings for actual powers.

You get to rule that land in exchange for set days of military service for king and in exchange of ensuring taxes are collected. Peasants opinions were not important.

> And I’m sure the first peasants had some choice. Later ones ... not so much.

Why are you sure?

Re:What you can learn about medieval Europe if you focus on ... by ajmadesc on Friday February 12, 2021 @04:13AM (#26111875)
Safety from...other nobility.
Re:What you can learn about medieval Europe if you focus on ... by remarkEon on Friday February 12, 2021 @01:52AM (#26111295)
I don’t see how democracy is much different, to be quite honest. The same structures get set up (the state, instead of a Lord, provides security ... over time the state drags the “citizens” into new wars all the same). I suppose the difference is that in a democracy you at least have an illusion of influence on the state, whereas in a Feudalistic society everyone was quite honest about how the peasants had no or only limited influence at best.
Re:What you can learn about medieval Europe if you focus on ... by tsimionescu on Friday February 12, 2021 @02:31AM (#26111444)
This is ignoring all of the details. Feudal peasants were much closer to slaves than to citizens in a democracy. They had a duty to produce certain amounts of resources for the lord - often not a percentage like a tax, but a minimum amount due. In many places at many times, they were bound to the land - they were not allowed to move away from the village where they lived, definitely not to a different Lord's lands. As you also note, they had no power to influence decision making, and even if they did rise up, they were violently put down, by neighboring lords if they somehow were successful against their own.

Not to mention, (modern) states offer much more than military security. They offer healthcare, food, care for the disabled, infrastructure, education, and many other services. And, especially in smaller nations or at local levels (think town, not US state), there is quite a lot of real democratic power, certainly incomparable to the realities of serfdom.

Re:What you can learn about medieval Europe if you focus on ... by remarkEon on Friday February 12, 2021 @02:57AM (#26111558)
Look, I’m not making an argument in favor of serfdom (far from it). I’m pointing out that many current iterations of democracy have become quite corrupt, so much so that the difference between it and feudalism is one measured on the margins (your details). Every couple days an article gets upvoted on this website that describes how the economies in (western) democracies have metastasized to the point where it’s participants are just cogs, working for a massive corporate enterprise that explicitly does not care about them, voting in elections about a government that quite often does the opposite of what is in their expressed interests, and/or are stuck in an infinite loop of debt-enabled credentialism.

Okay yeah that’s not de jure feudalism. Inching closer and closer to de facto, though.

Edit: to say this again, because apparently it’s needed. I am not in favor of feudalism.

Re:What you can learn about medieval Europe if you focus on ... by mrmonkeyman on Friday February 12, 2021 @03:24AM (#26111687)
But still lightyears off. You are dramatizing our priviledged existence. Billions (literal) would offer their firstborn son to be "cogs" working a "massive corporate enterprise". What you are describing is the good part of modern life, I suggest you don't look at the bad parts if this already disturbs your soul.
Re:What you can learn about medieval Europe if you focus on ... by tsimionescu on Friday February 12, 2021 @03:40AM (#26111751)
I didn't take your comments as being in favor of feudalism, I took it as being a bit too cynical of modern states. The clarifications in your new comment make it clearer that you are more talking about a direction, not saying we already live in neo-feudalism, and I agree with you completely that it is something we're inching towards.
Re:What you can learn about medieval Europe if you focus on ... by remarkEon on Friday February 12, 2021 @04:06AM (#26111843)
Thanks, and yes I should’ve been more clear about my intent. I am a defender of democracy, and what I said should’ve been better placed in the context of what I actually mean. Namely, the decay of competency and the corruption we see in many democracies will drift to a point where the situations of their citizens start to mimic or echo a version of feudalism.
Re:What you can learn about medieval Europe if you focus on ... by pietrovismara on Friday February 12, 2021 @08:03AM (#26113171)
> This is ignoring all of the details. Feudal peasants were much closer to slaves than to citizens in a democracy.

I disagree. We overestimate the freedom we have and underestimate theirs.

For example they had much more free time than we do today. We on the other hand are still "free" to choose where to work (as long as we aren't in poverty, which is unfortunately untrue for too many, with no prospect of future change), but the workplace is as undemocratic as it gets.

Forget our (tech) golden workplaces. Most people spend 2/3 of their lives in authoritarian workplaces that they can't leave because they need their shit job to survive.

Where is the practical difference with being a serf?

Even in the west, most of us don't live a democracy, except for the minority of their time.

Re:What you can learn about medieval Europe if you focus on ... by ashtonkem on Friday February 12, 2021 @02:53AM (#26111540)
If you’ve left your town without your landlords permission, you enjoy a freedom that medieval peasants didn’t have. If your apartment changed hands without you suddenly becoming someone’s property, you’ve enjoyed a freedom peasants didn’t have. If you’ve been involved in a legal process that wasn’t adjudicated by your land lord then you’ve enjoyed a freedom peasants didn’t have.

I can’t believe I need to explain this, but democracy is nothing like feudalism.

Re:What you can learn about medieval Europe if you focus on ... by masswerk on Friday February 12, 2021 @04:40AM (#26111974)
Actually, most parts of medieval society were astoundingly mobile. Not everyone was tenant or serf, many, as in the trades and crafts, workers of all kind and everyone involved in moving goods, were often travelling and surprisingly mobile, as were the ruling class. Mind that this was before settled living became the standard model. (Which happened in continental Europe only in the 18th century.)
Re:What you can learn about medieval Europe if you focus on ... by rowanG077 on Friday February 12, 2021 @05:54AM (#26112319)
In fact you aren't allowed to leave the country if the state doesn't allow it. You equate two concepts together because the words are similar (lord and landlord) but that's childish. It's obvious a lord back in the is much closet to a governments then a landlord.
Re:What you can learn about medieval Europe if you focus on ... by ashtonkem on Friday February 12, 2021 @10:36AM (#26114781)
You’re not the literal and legal property of your government. The comparison is still not apt.
Re:What you can learn about medieval Europe if you focus on ... by rowanG077 on Friday February 12, 2021 @11:13AM (#26115192)
You were also not the literal and legal property of your lord. It wasn't slavery.
Re:What you can learn about medieval Europe if you focus on ... by ashtonkem on Friday February 12, 2021 @02:14PM (#26117362)
Most serfs weren’t slaves[0], true. But in many areas serfs were legally bound to the land that they occupied. If that land changed hands, so did the serfs legally. That’s no slavery, but it’s also far worse than being a freeman.

In all areas they had fewer rights and more obligations than freemen; there’s a reason why being reduced to serfdom was often done out of economic need, and why freedom often had to be bought.

0 - Some types of serfs were literally slaves and could be traded as such. See Russian Kholops.

Re:What you can learn about medieval Europe if you focus on ... by remarkEon on Friday February 12, 2021 @03:00AM (#26111575)
Do you think I’m making an argument in favor of feudalism? I’m sorry that pointing out that our current structures of government aren’t exactly performing at their presumed capacity is a troubling idea.
Re:What you can learn about medieval Europe if you focus on ... by ashtonkem on Friday February 12, 2021 @03:23PM (#26118132)
You’re getting downvoted because our current system of government, no matter how flawed, is very different from feudalism. The comparison is poor for all the reasons I listed and more.

There are better ways to critique our current system without such hamfisted comparisons.