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Re:MasterCard to open up network to cryptocurrencies by tehlike on Thursday February 11, 2021 @10:25AM (#26102429)
A friend of mine basically put it this way: bitcoin can't become medium of exchange before it becomes medium of value. You can read this as: if you are holding btc, it's in your best interest to hold more without selling.
Re:MasterCard to open up network to cryptocurrencies by PragmaticPulp on Thursday February 11, 2021 @10:30AM (#26102511)
If it’s in your best interest to buy and never sell, why would anyone want to use it for exchange?

Bitcoin’s deflationary nature discourages spending and selling, by definition. The high transaction costs discourage it even further.

Re:MasterCard to open up network to cryptocurrencies by uncletammy on Thursday February 11, 2021 @11:45AM (#26103759)
> If it’s in your best interest to buy and never sell, why would anyone want to use it for exchange?

It's not in your best interest to buy and never sell. Current investors are just incredibly short sighted. If bitcoin isn't usable by (and useful to) the majority of the world, it will never get enough investment to serve as a buffer against the drastic price swings caused by speculators.

Smart investors know that simply holding coins isn't enough in the long run. Finding new use cases and encouraging adoption and use is the only way crypto stands a chance.

Re:MasterCard to open up network to cryptocurrencies by T0Bi on Thursday February 11, 2021 @10:35AM (#26102599)
How is bitcoin deflationary when it (currently) has a fixed inflation?
Re:MasterCard to open up network to cryptocurrencies by uncletammy on Thursday February 11, 2021 @11:23AM (#26103400)
When people say it's deflationary, they mean "in the long run". Bitcoin has a fixed, predetermined inflation schedule which approaches zero over time. So, considering the inflation schedule alone, it's "eventually" deflationary.

When you start to account for other things like lost and unrecoverable coins, it becomes severely deflationary and much sooner. Things like grandpa taking his encrypted wallet to the grave or in the case of bitcoin BTC, small coins that can't be moved because the fee is higher than the coin's value.

At the time of writing this, coins worth less than ~ $6.15 (USD) aren't able to be spent*. That means if you bought a $4 coffee with BTC and paid with a tenner (a coin [input] worth $10) , you'd lose the change. It would remain unspendable until the network starts unclogging.

* By "arent able to be spent" I mean, reasonable fee estimations for getting the transaction into a block within an amount of time that you can be sure the transaction won't get dropped from the mempool. I used https://bitcoiner.live to estimate the fee which was the most generous of the three I looked at.

Re:MasterCard to open up network to cryptocurrencies by Jtsummers on Thursday February 11, 2021 @10:57AM (#26102979)
It's getting wider ownership over time so BTC supply is increasingly limited per person/entity interested in it, and the increase in supply is at a decreasing rate over time. This wider ownership and the (ultimately) fixed amount means that it will, even if not monotonically, be a deflationary currency (to the extent that it even is a currency). The rate of new BTC production has to overcome this deflationary pressure, and since there's always less coming out over time the potential inflationary pressure of minting new BTC will become increasingly insignificant.

Any currency with a limited supply will tend to be deflationary over time, though not necessarily experiencing a deflationary spiral depending on the overall economy around it. An active economy will see enough movement of the currency that deflation will, hopefully, be small. But an inactive economy (like bitcoin's) with people hoarding rather than spending will see higher-than-healthy (from an economic perspective, it's great for the hoarders if they can use it later) deflation rates.

Re:MasterCard to open up network to cryptocurrencies by tfehring on Thursday February 11, 2021 @10:56AM (#26102953)
Inflation isn’t strictly a measure of the monetary base. The dominant factor in “inflation” of (almost?) all cryptocurrencies is demand, not supply.

Now, you can make the argument that that’s not really inflation - that BTC won’t predictably ~double in value every year going forward, and therefore one shouldn’t be afraid to spend it - but the idea that the tiny rate of increase in supply should be a major factor in that decision is pretty silly. Also, it’s not obvious that it’s being mined faster than it’s being eliminated due to lost keys.

Re:MasterCard to open up network to cryptocurrencies by koboll on Thursday February 11, 2021 @10:42AM (#26102726)
If bitcoin is a currency, then the prices of things in bitcoin have fallen over time. What cost 40,000 BTC a decade ago now costs 1 BTC.

But bitcoin is more of an asset than a currency, so speaking of it in terms of inflation / deflation leads to oddities, like this.

Re:MasterCard to open up network to cryptocurrencies by PragmaticPulp on Thursday February 11, 2021 @10:45AM (#26102765)
> But bitcoin is more of an asset than a currency, so speaking of it in terms of inflation / deflation leads to oddities, like this.

Assets inflate and deflate. It’s not an oddity.

Re:MasterCard to open up network to cryptocurrencies by PragmaticPulp on Thursday February 11, 2021 @10:42AM (#26102722)
Contrary to the pop-culture definition, inflation isn’t purely driven by fiscal policy or money supply. Supply and demand (aka cost-push inflation and demand-pull inflation) are the main drivers. Fiscal policy modulates these factors, but inflation existed long before fiscal intervention.

Bitcoin adoption is a deflationary process because an increasing number of people are competing over a fixed (ultimately) supply of Bitcoin.

If more people want Bitcoin, the price goes up. Why do more people want Bitcoin? Because the price goes up. The cycle reverses when the price starts going down.

Re:MasterCard to open up network to cryptocurrencies by adam_arthur on Thursday February 11, 2021 @10:51AM (#26102868)
Deflationary relative to the USD and other fiat currencies. The world is never going to run primarily on BTC, so talking about inflation purely in terms of number of BTC is a bit pointless :)
Re:MasterCard to open up network to cryptocurrencies by edm0nd on Thursday February 11, 2021 @10:40AM (#26102670)
got em
Re:MasterCard to open up network to cryptocurrencies by octocop on Thursday February 11, 2021 @12:50PM (#26104752)
> If it’s in your best interest to buy and never sell, why would anyone want to use it for exchange?

Define best interest here. I mean saving money and investing it to make more money is also in everyone's best interest, but that is certainly not the case. So why is that?

Re:MasterCard to open up network to cryptocurrencies by Jtsummers on Thursday February 11, 2021 @01:20PM (#26105160)
There's a difference between investing in companies, states, and individuals (stocks, bonds, loans), saving in a bank (depending on the structure is usually tied to some kind of investment like those, but not controlled by the saver), and hoarding something under the mattress.

Holding BTC is the same as the last one. The holdings are not invested in anything remotely productive, it's just speculation on the future value.

Re:MasterCard to open up network to cryptocurrencies by octocop on Friday February 12, 2021 @03:22AM (#26111679)
I would have to disagree with you. Seeing what has happened to crypto the last few years, it's very apparent that things are changing. Everyone on here is talking like bitcoin or any other crypto is the disease and not a symptom. I believe that it's merely a symptom, a anarchy of sort, against the old ways.
Re:MasterCard to open up network to cryptocurrencies by ivalm on Thursday February 11, 2021 @01:09PM (#26105034)
Investing money in productive enterprise is the thing that is in societal benefit. Investing money in a virtual asset that has no other benefit and massive ecological costs is not a benefit.
Re:MasterCard to open up network to cryptocurrencies by octocop on Friday February 12, 2021 @03:19AM (#26111664)
We will see. As far as I can tell, it's the productive enterprises and everyday people that are ruining the environment. But hey, your comment sounded smart, which is the the real goal here.
Re:MasterCard to open up network to cryptocurrencies by tehlike on Thursday February 11, 2021 @10:40AM (#26102688)
Bitcoin is not used for medium of exchang, at scale, that's the point.
Re:MasterCard to open up network to cryptocurrencies by PragmaticPulp on Thursday February 11, 2021 @10:43AM (#26102744)
So your point is that Bitcoin isn’t a medium of exchange?
Re:MasterCard to open up network to cryptocurrencies by tehlike on Thursday February 11, 2021 @11:17AM (#26103289)
Not yet, not at scale.
Re:MasterCard to open up network to cryptocurrencies by uncletammy on Thursday February 11, 2021 @12:08PM (#26104147)
Although I follow the logic, I think your friend is wrong. A consequence of trying to make bitcoin BTC a "store of value" first has led to huge investment centralization as well as a drastic reduction in the number viable use cases.

Investment centralization is bad because it makes it much more susceptible to regulatory capture by the industries crypto stands to disrupt. We're already seeing this now. The same big banks that called crypto a scam have suddenly become bullish after a few years of quietly buying coins. We need regular people on the streets advocating for crypto.

The reduced use cases is a problem because it minimizes adoption and the network effect, both of which are vital for the long term survival of the network.

Re:MasterCard to open up network to cryptocurrencies by rowland66 on Thursday February 11, 2021 @02:37PM (#26106075)
If your goal is to buy and never sell, then btc is the ideal investment. You can buy the btc, destroy your private key, and nobody will ever be able to sell it, not even your grandkids poking around in the attic 20 years after you have died.
Re:MasterCard to open up network to cryptocurrencies by temp8964 on Thursday February 11, 2021 @10:47AM (#26102807)
How do you apply this logic to USD? You either want to hold it or want to use it? Since everybody need to use USD, so nobody should hold USD?
Re:MasterCard to open up network to cryptocurrencies by JumpCrisscross on Thursday February 11, 2021 @11:27AM (#26103470)
> How do you apply this logic to USD? You either want to hold it or want to use it?

Of course it applies. Holding lots of dollars (e.g. as hard cash or in a checking account) is stupid. That is the purpose and benefit of (mild) inflation: to incentivise consuming or investing them.

Re:MasterCard to open up network to cryptocurrencies by dna_polymerase on Thursday February 11, 2021 @11:51AM (#26103845)
Also people don't expect the dollar to become more valuable anytime soon, so spending it doesn't effect seller's remorse a day later, which happens to everyone spending ETH or BTC these days.
Re:MasterCard to open up network to cryptocurrencies by Jtsummers on Thursday February 11, 2021 @01:34PM (#26105348)
And, since USD is inflationary, we expect it to become less valuable (real value) over time which encourages investment and spending today. Since we don't have crazy levels of inflation this doesn't fully discourage savings (with a 10% or higher inflation rate you have very little incentive to save, with 1 or 2% your savings lose value over time, but slow enough that it's still worth saving). Economies are improved and sustained by moving money, not by stagnant money.
Re:MasterCard to open up network to cryptocurrencies by jkepler on Thursday February 11, 2021 @03:36PM (#26106781)
2% inflation over 30 years destroys over half the purchasing power of the saved money. So no, moderate inflation doesn't encourage saving. It encourages the unbridled consumerism that has created environmental catastrophe.

Bitcoin, as a deflationary asset, encourages lower time preference, which encourages saving and real investing (generating real world value rather than paper gains), resulting in less consumerism and better stewarding of resources.

Re:MasterCard to open up network to cryptocurrencies by Jtsummers on Thursday February 11, 2021 @03:45PM (#26106897)
I said it doesn't fully discourage it. I did not say that it encourages saving. Read my post.

BTC does not encourage real investing, only hoarding. The hoarded BTC is not used in any productive investment or way because no one will loan it when it gains much more value than most businesses can produce merely by existing. When it can increase in apparent value by 100% in just a few weeks, there is no reason to invest your BTC because no business (or very few, and none sustainably) will have similar returns.

Re:MasterCard to open up network to cryptocurrencies by nybble41 on Thursday February 11, 2021 @03:11PM (#26106468)
> Economies are improved and sustained by moving money, not by stagnant money.

A common misconception. The health of an economy lies in the goods that are exchanged; money is merely a placeholder. They are improved by producing more goods than are consumed, which creates room for investment in capital goods (tools for enhancing the productivity of goods and labor) and the research and development of improved technology (learning to make better tools).

"Stagnant" money just means that more goods were produced than were consumed, and the surplus was not actively invested. The surplus still exists, and continues to fuel investment (by others) so long as the money remains unspent. The "stagnant" money is off the market, not competing for goods and services, and as such contributes to a reduction in prices similar to what would occur if that money were simply destroyed (albeit temporarily), shrinking the money supply. In effect this leaves the decision about how the surplus of goods should be invested up to other market participants.

If the owner of the "stagnant" money knows of ways to invest which would provide an ROI better than the average rate of return on the market (i.e. the rate of deflation) then they should do so, earning themselves a profit and raising the average rate of return. However, below-average investments—malinvestments—would lower the average rate of return and reduce overall economic growth, and ought to be discouraged. It's better for everyone for the owner to simply sit back, "hoard" the money, and receive a passive reward for producing more than they consumed than it would be for them to actively invest in ventures with below-average realized returns and thus divert resources from better-performing ventures, but that is exactly what an actively inflationary monetary policy encourages by driving people who lack the competency to choose good investments to invest in the market anyway merely to avoid losses due to money supply inflation.

Re:MasterCard to open up network to cryptocurrencies by Jtsummers on Thursday February 11, 2021 @03:49PM (#26106939)
It would've been better if I'd been more deliberate with that sentence, you're right. "money" was my shorthand for "things moving in the economy, including financial measures like cash and the exchange of goods and services". Just measuring the movement of money means that two people could create an apparently vibrant economy by exchanging $1,000 between them every minute of every day, but such an economy would be absolutely bereft of any real value or health.

"Stagnant" was my way of referring to hoarded money that's not actually invested in anything. Yes, it's equivalent to removing it from the economy and it reduces the nominal price of goods and services, which also means it reduces the nominal wages (over time). Which means old money is given a much stronger benefit in the economy when they finally spend it, and new money (including new entrants like an 18 year old getting their first full time job) are severely penalized not due to any actual lack of skill or ability, but due to their entering the economy 100 years too late.

Re:MasterCard to open up network to cryptocurrencies by temp8964 on Thursday February 11, 2021 @11:49AM (#26103808)
What if cryptocurrencies do not have the inflation problem?
Re:MasterCard to open up network to cryptocurrencies by JumpCrisscross on Thursday February 11, 2021 @11:51AM (#26103847)
> What if cryptocurrencies do not have the inflation problem?

Then it is rational to hold, not spend, them. Deflationary currencies don’t function. (They can be stores of value.)

Re:MasterCard to open up network to cryptocurrencies by ivalm on Thursday February 11, 2021 @01:15PM (#26105100)
But inflation isn’t a problem, it’s a benefit. We want people to spend or invest (in production) their money; economy works best when money is actively circulated, not hoarded. The problem with a totally fixed money supply is that as productivity grows new investments are disincentivizes, as a fixed currently holder get the benefits of aggregate productivity increases (through deflation) without risking his money in investing in companies.
Re:MasterCard to open up network to cryptocurrencies by hackinthebochs on Thursday February 11, 2021 @10:52AM (#26102885)
It's an entirely different beast when everyone is forced to use USD as a medium of exchange.
Re:MasterCard to open up network to cryptocurrencies by mcosta on Thursday February 11, 2021 @11:04AM (#26103083)
You are only forced to pay taxes in USD.
Re:MasterCard to open up network to cryptocurrencies by jkepler on Thursday February 11, 2021 @05:50PM (#26108499)
If its only taxes that are forced on us, why then do US notes say that they're legal tender for all debts public and private. That sounds like force to me: I may want payment in bitcoin or Swiss francs or whatever, but if the payee wants to pay me in USD in the USA, am I free to refuse their payment as non-valid? Or am I forced to accept Federal Reserve Notes?
Re:MasterCard to open up network to cryptocurrencies by dane-pgp on Thursday February 11, 2021 @08:01PM (#26109661)
> if the payee wants to pay me in USD in the USA, am I free to refuse their payment as non-valid?

Yes.

Legal tender for debts only means that you have to accept the notes if you have issued credit to the payer. For example, if they ate at your restaurant and came to settle the bill, they would owe you the amounts printed on the menu for the items that they ordered, but if they came into your cheese shop and wanted to buy some Swiss cheese, you could choose to only carry out the transaction if they paid in Swiss Francs.

Re:MasterCard to open up network to cryptocurrencies by code_duck on Thursday February 11, 2021 @11:17AM (#26103293)
Crypto would get a large boost if a mandatory customer with a multi-hundred billion dollar "market" decided to require it.
Re:MasterCard to open up network to cryptocurrencies by hackinthebochs on Thursday February 11, 2021 @10:51AM (#26102867)
Absolutely. Bitcoin as a store of value had to come before its use as a medium of exchange. Why would anyone exchange a currency for a product when you didn't expect its value to hold until you could use it? If its only value was driven by the demand as a medium of exchange, its value would fluctuate with this demand. In the early days this would be detrimental to its ability to serve the role as a medium of exchange. How long would you need to hold your coins before there was enough demand for exchange again?

It is the speculators buying and holding that create the expectation that its value will hold over time, thus making it viable as a medium of exchange.