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Re:The Queen has more power over British law than we thought by retrac on Tuesday February 09, 2021 @02:39PM (#26081614)
Yes, this is very true. The Crown plays a useful and vital role in the Westminster system. (I'm in Canada.) It can't just be tossed without something to replace it. But I'm not sure the monarchy offers anything not provided by a nonpartisan and mostly ceremonial presidency, similar to Ireland or Germany.
Re:The Queen has more power over British law than we thought by philistine on Tuesday February 09, 2021 @07:20PM (#26084358)
Here’s my point of view: it would be extremely simple to change our system to give reduced powers of our Governor General to an unelected president named by our prime minister every five years.

But because the Canadian government rammed the constitution down the throat of the Quebec government, any constitutional change is now a political impossibility. And now Indigenous groups are demanding a seat at any constitutional discussion, which is absolutely appropriate but also fraught with uncertainty.

So the lack of change to our constitutional monarchy is not because we cannot think of how to replace it: it’s because Pierre Elliot Trudeau done goofed.

Re:The Queen has more power over British law than we thought by retrac on Wednesday February 10, 2021 @12:50AM (#26086068)
You're certainly right. It's generally agreed that Canada could become a republic simply by amending the constitution to outline a new law of succession that established a de facto presidency, that would be "heir" to the monarchy, and then advising the Queen to abdicate as Queen of Canada. Then the new head of state inherits the office of the Crown, and is now the President as outlined in law. Elegant, really.

But, politically, the unanimous consent of the provinces to do so is essentially impossible to obtain, due to the history you mention. Canadians also simply don't care much about this. My impression is that most people are basically republicans by sentiment, but their level of actually caring about this is near zero. I'm in that camp myself. I'd like a republic. But the headache of opening up constitutional negotiations? Gah! That has never ended well in our history.

Re:The Queen has more power over British law than we thought by Pulcinella on Tuesday February 09, 2021 @06:43PM (#26084063)
Monarchy is inherently undemocratic and has no place in a modern democracy. I am quite certain Canada would continue to function just fine (or even better) without someone pretending they were divinely appointed at the top.
Re:The Queen has more power over British law than we thought by dmatech on Tuesday February 09, 2021 @07:36PM (#26084472)
You'd have to be prepared to get rid of the entire concept of the "head of state". The USA has proven quite well that having the head of government and head of state combined has substantial problems. A head of government needs to be somewhat competent and deliver results, but a head of state needs to project "gravitas", "dignitas", and other virtues. In the case of the UK, the prime minister has been relieved of the need to project these qualities and be a "mascot", but a US president has not.

In theory, the people themselves are the source of legitimacy for modern governments. But the media and some of the population demands a figurehead that provides centralized moral leadership.

Re:The Queen has more power over British law than we thought by roelschroeven on Tuesday February 09, 2021 @05:25PM (#26083245)
> It can't just be tossed without something to replace it.

Why not? I admit I'm more familiar with the Belgian situation than the British Crown, but to me it always seems not very difficult to replace the monarch with almost nothing. I don't see why we need any kind of president, even though that's what people always talk when there's talk of doing away with the monarchy. The real leader of the country is the prime minister anyway.

Re:The Queen has more power over British law than we thought by graeme on Tuesday February 09, 2021 @05:49PM (#26083553)
The Belgian situation seems fairly dysfunctional. Is the monarch completely absent from politics? This happened in 2007-11: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007–2011_Belgian_political_cr...

In Brazil in the 19th century liberal democrats thought a monarch was unnecessary, after 67 years of successful politics under a king. Upon abolition the country devolved into a long succession of military coups and dictatorial governments.

There have obviously been successful countries without monarchy, but it is very risky to say that a figurehead does nothing. Reserve powers are a pretty real restraint.

Re:The Queen has more power over British law than we thought by arp242 on Tuesday February 09, 2021 @09:40PM (#26085202)
I think the political situation/crisis in Belgium have little to do with the position of the monarch, and more with the somewhat unique situation of Belgium. It's a small deeply divided country; many of the top parties in the 2019 election participated only in the Dutch or French regions. While regional parties aren't unique to Belgium (e.g. SNP in Scotland), the way the votes are split between the two regions is a pretty big problem, and much of the disagreement stems from which list (Dutch or French) people in BHV could vote. This is an issue that goes back to the country's founding in various forms.
Re:The Queen has more power over British law than we thought by roelschroeven on Tuesday February 09, 2021 @06:10PM (#26083756)
> The Belgian situation seems fairly dysfunctional. Is the monarch completely absent from politics?

The monarch appoints "preformateurs" and "formateur" who are elections start talks between people from the different political parties and (try to) form a cabinet, in different stages of the process. That's where he (or possibly she in a few decades, when Filip dies or abdicates and Elisabeth becomes Belgian's first Queen, if that's still a thing then) has by far the most influence in politics.

Some people he shouldn't even have that influence, and I'm inclined to agree. In any case, finding another process for that is probably the most difficult issue to deal with in case we would transform to a pure parliamentary democracy.

Reserve power ... I don't know. I don't think he has enough power for that. Maybe symbolically, maybe that counts for more than I think. Some say the king and/or the whole royal family is one of the few things that still hold Belgium more or less together.

If indeed having a figurehead can protect us from civil war and other kinds of chaos, then by all means, let us have a figurehead.

Re:The Queen has more power over British law than we thought by retrac on Tuesday February 09, 2021 @06:44PM (#26084075)
The reserve powers of the Crown have been reduced even more in Canada than in the UK, and there are several cases in just the last decade where the Lieutenant Governor or Governor General has had to make a decision. For example, if there's a motion of no confidence in the first sitting of the legislature, and the Prime Minister loses power immediately, the right answer is contextual. Sometimes another election really would be appropriate, in many cases the opposition can form a working government, if given a chance.

None of these problems are insurmountable, of course. And you could just keep an executive -- I personally prefer just replacing the Governor General in Canada with a president, preferably indirectly elected. Still, patching the constitution would be pretty involved, if you wish to fully excise the executive in its current form from the Westminster system.

Re:The Queen has more power over British law than we thought by jonp888 on Wednesday February 10, 2021 @02:45AM (#26086561)
So if after an election there are two different coalitions with different Prime-ministerial candidates who both claim to be the best chance at a stable government, who makes the choice to go with one of them, or to call fresh elections?
Re:The Queen has more power over British law than we thought by lazyasciiart on Wednesday February 10, 2021 @04:08AM (#26087011)
This happens in countries with and without a monarch - Spain re-ran their elections in 2016 and again in 2019 because no party could present themselves to the king as viable (a.k.a a majority coalition). Israel, without a monarch, has been re-running their elections for two years now because a weak coalition forms, governs for a minute, and then falls apart.
Re:The Queen has more power over British law than we thought by roelschroeven on Wednesday February 10, 2021 @04:23AM (#26087116)
Parliament. A cabinet needs approval of a majority in parliament. At that stage of the process, the monarch has no influence, even now. I'm not sure who decides whether or not to hold new elections, but I'm pretty sure it's not the monarch.
Re:The Queen has more power over British law than we thought by etrevino on Tuesday February 09, 2021 @02:56PM (#26081762)
You're 100% right. The UK would be served just as well by a nonpartisan president.
Re:The Queen has more power over British law than we thought by hindsightbias on Tuesday February 09, 2021 @07:11PM (#26084297)
All the evidence is that you'll end up with something more like a Kardashian and I doubt they'll bring in the billions of tourism dollars world royal fans do.

Stay Classy, Britain.

Re:The Queen has more power over British law than we thought by gruffalowboy on Tuesday February 09, 2021 @03:39PM (#26082136)
> nonpartisan president

Oxymoron.

You have to vote for a president right otherwise you end up with ... well Oliver Cromwell. A Dictator by any other name.

Re:The Queen has more power over British law than we thought by retrac on Tuesday February 09, 2021 @03:49PM (#26082212)
Why? The Queen was not elected. She's not a dictator. The de facto head of state in Canada is the Governor General who represents the Queen. The office is, in practice, appointed by the Prime Minister. Also not a tyrannical dictator. (Except with her personal staff, for the last one.)

Nonpartisan in the sense that the Queen is nonpartisan. So of course, partisan. Still, nonpartisan like not publicly wading into political debates, and not opening up the office to the vulgarities of electoral politics.

For example, Germany elects its president by convening both the Federal and State legislatures together, who then vote. By pulling in all the regional parties and legislators, the President has to have broad support across party lines. It's also convention that the President doesn't wade into daily political issues. The result is a largely ceremonial office, usually held by a broadly respected statesperson with former government experience. Which is what you want for the "emergency button" you hope you don't have to push in the first place.

Re:The Queen has more power over British law than we thought by User23 on Tuesday February 09, 2021 @04:40PM (#26082694)
A monarch actually holds a higher office than a dictator in the Western tradition.

This is relevant because Western monarchs claim the office of Rex/Regina.

Re:The Queen has more power over British law than we thought by sudosysgen on Tuesday February 09, 2021 @04:44PM (#26082739)
Monarchs are just as bad if not worse than dictators. There are also non-tyrannical dictators. The issue with dictators is an issue of incentives, not an issue of immediate result.

Unelected officials should never have significant power. This led to a harmful coup d'etat in Australia. It's not a ceremonial office, and simply the fact that the emergency button exists makes it possible for perversions to continue and cause serious issues (and it has).

Partisanship is very far from the only cause of dysfunction in governments. I'd argue it's not even the worst.

Re:The Queen has more power over British law than we thought by Retric on Tuesday February 09, 2021 @05:39PM (#26083417)
The difference between a Monarchy and a Dictatorship is a question of tradition and the concentration of power not the line of succession. North Korea for example moved from father to son as a Dictatorship, give it 5 generations and you could call it a Monarchy.

However, even if it’s generally accepted that the child or close relative of the current leader should become the new leader there will eventually be back and forth over time between the royal family and other members of government. In theory they might have absolute authority, but in both practice and tradition there will be many informal limits.

Re:The Queen has more power over British law than we thought by sudosysgen on Tuesday February 09, 2021 @06:59PM (#26084210)
Dictators absolutely don't have absolute power either - they have to juggle it with the military, the private sector, and so on, at the very least. In practice, the concentration of power between a dictator and a monarch is very similar. There are monarchs that hold a lot more power than the average dictators, and dictators that hold a lot less power than the average monarch (Marxist-Leninist states such as the USSR or China have their dictator share quite a bit of power to the Politburo, lower cadres, and so on, for example).

In general, monarchies pretty much have had the absolute maximum of power concentration possible without disastrous consequences.

Re:The Queen has more power over British law than we thought by tehjoker on Tuesday February 09, 2021 @09:22PM (#26085108)
I would say it's not even merely incentives, it's about a free people controlling their own destiny without a self-appointed father figure. Both aspects are important. Would you rather have a paternalistic boss or the freedom to choose your own destiny in consultation with your peers?
Re:The Queen has more power over British law than we thought by gumby on Tuesday February 09, 2021 @05:01PM (#26082950)
Consider the examples given, countries like Germany, Ireland, India, etc

Where presidents have actual executive power such as USA, France, Russia, the issue you bring up can, at least in theory, occur.

Re:The Queen has more power over British law than we thought by Chris2048 on Tuesday February 09, 2021 @04:54PM (#26082860)
And a republic. That said - what would happen to all the stuff owned by the crown?

I'm not sure if the postal service still is, and the prisons could probably be let go - but I think there's a lot of land, especially in the south owned by the crown.

Re:The Queen has more power over British law than we thought by retrac on Tuesday February 09, 2021 @04:58PM (#26082910)
Property owned by the Crown is not the property of Elizabeth, as a person. If QE II were to abdicate, for example, she would not get to keep all of it. It's the property of the Crown, the office of the head of state. It belongs to the state, in practice. If she's advised to abdicate, she would, and she's advised to transfer all Crown property to a republic, she would.

The royal family does have many billions in personal holdings as well, of course.

Re:The Queen has more power over British law than we thought by skissane on Tuesday February 09, 2021 @06:11PM (#26083767)
> Property owned by the Crown is not the property of Elizabeth, as a person.

The Crown and Queen Elizabeth II are different persons. Queen Elizabeth II is a natural person. The Crown is a legal person, a corporation sole – a corporation with only one member, who right now is Queen Elizabeth II. Actually the Crown is not a single corporation, but a number of legally distinct corporations which all have identical membership. There is "the Crown in Right of the United Kingdom", "the Crown in Right of Canada", "the Crown in Right of the Commonwealth of Australia", "the Crown in Right of New Zealand", etc. All up, there are 16 nations with Queen Elizabeth II as monarch, and each of those nations is a distinct corporation "the Crown in Right of X". But, also there exist distinct "the Crown in Right of X" corporations for each Australian state (6) and each Canadian province (10), and also each of the three British crown dependencies (Isle of Mann, Jersey and Guernsey). So there are 35 legal persons (corporations sole) "the Crown in Right of X", and one natural person who is presently the sole common member of all of them. Each of those 35 corporations has distinct assets, which in turn are distinct from the personal assets of the natural person called Elizabeth. If any of those 35 entities became a republic, the assets of the "Crown in Right of X" corporation would pass to its republican successor.

Re:The Queen has more power over British law than we thought by mattmanser on Tuesday February 09, 2021 @05:11PM (#26083079)
Do they actually though? If they do, how come Edward VIII had to go begging after his abdication?
Re:The Queen has more power over British law than we thought by retrac on Tuesday February 09, 2021 @05:29PM (#26083292)
AIUI he was effectively disowned by the rest of them, for placing his marriage above the stability of the institution. It could well have led to a British republic. And the next king did pay him an allowance anyway, apparently.
Re:The Queen has more power over British law than we thought by mhh__ on Tuesday February 09, 2021 @08:06PM (#26084667)
Royal Mail was privatised years ago.
Re:The Queen has more power over British law than we thought by crumbshot on Tuesday February 09, 2021 @06:27PM (#26083925)
Abolishing the monarchy would also obsolete the Sovereign Grant, so all the surplus income from the Crown Estate would go to the state without the royal family leeching their cut.

That said, there are some Duchies that are privately owned. In my opinion, these should be seized by the state during the establishment of a republic - if we're going to abolish the monarchy, we need to go the whole way and strip each member of all their inherited wealth too.

It's the very least they deserve, and would provide a much needed clean slate for New Britain.

Re:The Queen has more power over British law than we thought by zepto on Tuesday February 09, 2021 @08:59PM (#26084991)
I wasn’t aware of significant income flowing to the Queen from Papua New Guinea.
Re:The Queen has more power over British law than we thought by pmoriarty on Tuesday February 09, 2021 @06:57PM (#26084196)
"The Crown plays a useful and vital role in the Westminster system."

What role does it play that an elected official isn't better suited for?

Re:The Queen has more power over British law than we thought by ColFrancis on Wednesday February 10, 2021 @08:43AM (#26088877)
I'll bite.

One way to look at it is that with a portfolio of investments you want to spread your risk amongst different classes. If you are securing an IT system then you have defence in depth. If you produce medical devices you want to have physical and logical locking mechanisms (see Therac-25). The US style is to make everything elected: judges, sheriffs, presidents, governors, DAs and school boards are all elected. Which means that they are all vulnerable to the same class of failure.

Note: This particular role mentioned in the article, of providing consent/impact to certain broad classes of legislation, are not included in my argument above. I'm merely replying to your statement that an elected official is always better suited to all roles.