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Re:Tesla buys $1.5B in Bitcoin, may accept it as payment in ... by Cthulhu_ on Monday February 08, 2021 @10:47AM (#26066046)
I'm not claiming that a low-latency, no-borders, truly international digital currency is a bad thing. The main issue with Bitcoin is a complete lack of oversight.

As a currency it's dreadful, suffering from tens of thousands of percent in deflation (= value increased relative to the cost of goods).

As a trade product it's terrible, suffering from a lack of oversight from e.g. the SEC, opening it up to price manipulation (see MtGox creating artificial demand, the Tether money printer, the smaller crypto's being fucked around with by traders who have enough money to throw around to influence the price, and the meme coins being influenced by Elon Musk making a tweet about it (although afaik he can't be accused of manipulation directly, this time).

Re:Tesla buys $1.5B in Bitcoin, may accept it as payment in ... by usehackernews on Monday February 08, 2021 @10:55AM (#26066157)
Bitcoin is 12 years old. It’s very very young. Problems will be addressed as it matures.

Further, every currency has problems. Is USD perfect in your mind and without it’s own unique set of issues?

Re:Tesla buys $1.5B in Bitcoin, may accept it as payment in ... by phlo on Monday February 08, 2021 @12:14PM (#26067280)
Let's look at the Euro as a better¹ example, and let's take 2002 as the start date².

One year into its existence, a Pan-European Clearinghouse provided clearing services for participating countries.

Six years into its existence, in 2008, credit transfers and direct debit are operational across the SEPA area, meaning roughly that international payments are on par with domestic payments (i.e. no fees, 1-2 days wait time).

Eight years into its existence, SEPA transfers have become the dominant form of electronic payments in the Eurozone.

Since 2017 (fifteen years in), anyone with a SEPA bank account can send money to anyone else in the Area instantly³, and free of charge.

Throughout this time: * The Euro didn't suffer hyperdeflation. * There are ways to recover payments that were sent to mistyped IBANs and/or were sent fraudulently. * Users who forgot their e-banking password can get a new one from their bank and not lose all of their assets.

In 2019, SEPA processed about 22 billion credit transfers⁴. That's about 700 transactions per second, or about a hundred times more than the Bitcoin network is able to handle. SEPA also handled about the same number of direct debits, something that BTC doesn't offer. Best of all: SEPA did all that, without using approximately Chile's annual energy use.

Bitcoin is amazing Sci-Fi, brought to life. It's a testament to Satoshi's genius, to a cyberpunk-y spirit, and to applying game theory in a system that actually kinda works. But given its immense costs for miners, users, and society overall, it's something that falls squarely on the dystopian side of sci-fi.

¹: Mainly because the Euro is a multinational project and not a national currency. And also a little bit because the US banking system is a bit of a mess. But mainly for the "international" aspect.

²: Technically, it was created in 1992 and could be used, in electronic form, from 2001 onward. Still, banknotes and coins were introduced in 2002, so that feels like a good starting point.

³: "10 seconds, or up to 20 seconds in some circumstances"

⁴: https://www.europeanpaymentscouncil.eu/what-we-do/be-involve...

Re:Tesla buys $1.5B in Bitcoin, may accept it as payment in ... by phoboslab on Monday February 08, 2021 @12:42PM (#26067623)
SEPA payments with my bank here in Germany typically take 3 business days, not 10 seconds. Reading about it, it seems that my bank doesn't support SEPA Instant Credit Transfer!? I'm not sure if any bank here in Germany does (never looked, though).

No one here can pay for their pizza delivery through SEPA. Intermediaries like PayPal are still needed. I'm baffled that banks can't get their shit together to offer an instant payment solution that works over the internet (ie. no card reader) for small purchases.

What's the problem?

Re:Tesla buys $1.5B in Bitcoin, may accept it as payment in ... by majewsky on Monday February 08, 2021 @04:59PM (#26070786)
> it seems that my bank doesn't support SEPA Instant Credit Transfer!? I'm not sure if any bank here in Germany does (never looked, though).

There are several banks that support it. However, for instant transfers to work in practice, both the sending and receiving bank need to support it. I know of at least one person who opened a bank account with an Instant-Transfer-capable bank to get access to Instant Transfers.

Re:Tesla buys $1.5B in Bitcoin, may accept it as payment in ... by charcircuit on Monday February 08, 2021 @12:07PM (#26067183)
>the SEC

The SEC only deals with securities. Bitcoin is not a security.

Re:Tesla buys $1.5B in Bitcoin, may accept it as payment in ... by byerobh on Monday February 08, 2021 @11:03AM (#26066279)
Lack of oversight is the main feature, it only scares old women (not even all of them, who would have guessed but my grandma asked about btc in a call a year ago.) and why is deflation bad?
Re:Tesla buys $1.5B in Bitcoin, may accept it as payment in ... by Sevii on Monday February 08, 2021 @11:16AM (#26066439)
Deflation is supposedly bad because it encourages people to hold their money instead of investing it into businesses and new products.

The problem is that it is a prisoner's dilemma situation, where capital holders do not want to be 'encouraged' to invest their money even if it might be a net benefit to society as a whole.

Re:Tesla buys $1.5B in Bitcoin, may accept it as payment in ... by vzcx on Monday February 08, 2021 @11:47AM (#26066909)
I am not convinced of the deflationary spiral.

No one invests for a "net benefit to society as a whole." They invest for a return, and you can NPV your project in both inflationary and deflationary environments.