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Re:This Guy Has My MacBook by stretchwithme on Tuesday May 31, 2011 @06:21PM (#2604915)
Great job. Citizens like you will get involved when the cops pay attention.

New York used to be very, very bad. People thought that was just life in the big city. Then they decided to maintain order, even painting over graffiti as soon as they found it, and enforced even minor laws. The criminal element perceived that bad behavior would not be tolerated. Malcolm Gladwell describes it in Tipping Point.

Re:This Guy Has My MacBook by hugh3 on Tuesday May 31, 2011 @07:34PM (#2605151)
The second most remarkable thing about New York's zero-tolerance policing is how well it worked.

The most remarkable thing about it is how few other places have tried it since.

Re:This Guy Has My MacBook by light3 on Tuesday May 31, 2011 @08:23PM (#2605303)
Is it really expensive to implement?
Re:This Guy Has My MacBook by stretchwithme on Tuesday May 31, 2011 @09:44PM (#2605515)
I don't know how expensive enforcing laws is, but crime is really expensive. It destroys lives, property values, tourism and quality of life.

When people have control over whether laws are enforced where they live, they usually choose to enforce them rather than let everything go to hell.

Re:This Guy Has My MacBook by Duff on Wednesday June 01, 2011 @10:44AM (#2607463)
Yes it is very expensive. There are about 40,000 policemen in NYC. Then again, there were lots of cops in old days too -- but they weren't managed very well.

Back in the 80's, it was crazy. I grew up in a good neighborhood in Queens. The NYPD hid the drunks and incompetents in precients that served safer neighborhoods in those days. One day, a car almost hit my friends playing stickball in the street, then proceeded to go down the block and empty an Uzi into a guy at a bus stop. (Life Lesson: Don't piss off Columbian drug dealers.)

So my dad calls the cops. He dials 911, and the cop asks "Are they still shooting?" and hangs up when my dad says "Uh, no". He ended up pulling the fire department call box out on the street, and the firemen called for cops over the radio.

Re:This Guy Has My MacBook by Joeri on Wednesday June 01, 2011 @02:04AM (#2606164)
They did it without a budget increase. The book "The Blue Ocean" describes the strategy. IIRC, they shifted resources from other kinds of crime-fighting to combat visible crime.
Re:This Guy Has My MacBook by adolph on Wednesday June 01, 2011 @08:01AM (#2606885)
Sometimes expense is a matter of resource allocation (my apologies for bringing the "drug war" into this thread).
Re:This Guy Has My MacBook by stretchwithme on Wednesday June 01, 2011 @09:12PM (#2610171)
I suspect there is more crime when resources are more focused on violating rights than on protecting them.
Re:This Guy Has My MacBook by sitkack on Tuesday May 31, 2011 @11:59PM (#2605887)
It is also a great excuse for podunk "Great Communicator" loving sherifs to implement American Fascism.

As much as I love how safe NYC is, I don't want it to turn into Singapore.

Re:This Guy Has My MacBook by rbanffy on Wednesday June 01, 2011 @09:19AM (#2607102)
I believe that with the increased efficiency in identifying and prosecuting small offenses, punishment should be modulated down accordingly.

Crime happens when the risk of getting caught times the cost of punishment is lower than the benefit of the crime. If you increase the risk of getting caught, you may safely (in fact, you should) decrease the cost of being punished.

Re:This Guy Has My MacBook by stretchwithme on Wednesday June 01, 2011 @11:39PM (#2610574)
How immediate and certain the response to crime appears to be affects the perception of risk.

And even when there's no cop around, other things influence this perception. If there are a lot of people around and things are orderly and many visual cues contribute to the perception of order, the perception of risk is greater.

Re:This Guy Has My MacBook by eru on Wednesday June 01, 2011 @09:07PM (#2610155)
This calculation of course needs to take into account the limited rationality of humans, and the time value of rewards and punishments.
Re:This Guy Has My MacBook by rbanffy on Wednesday June 01, 2011 @10:02PM (#2610289)
I always say that working with Vulcans is much easier...
Re:This Guy Has My MacBook by stretchwithme on Thursday June 02, 2011 @03:09AM (#2611037)
I'd rather take action against the people causing problems than force everyone else to the costs of the problems they cause.

For example, people throwing plastic bags everywhere. Now were trying to restrict the freedom of people who don't litter rather than holding responsible those causing the problem.

Re:This Guy Has My MacBook by askar_yu on Wednesday June 01, 2011 @12:34AM (#2605958)
what is it with Singapore? <br> I am curious.
Re:This Guy Has My MacBook by stretchwithme on Wednesday June 01, 2011 @03:37AM (#2606395)
They still cane people there. Like smart ass American kids that steal street signs.
Re:This Guy Has My MacBook by hugh3 on Wednesday June 01, 2011 @09:52AM (#2607239)
I actually think that's not a bad idea! I want to read this book:

http://chronicle.com/article/In-Defense-of-Flogging/127208/

Re:This Guy Has My MacBook by JoachimSchipper on Wednesday June 01, 2011 @10:24AM (#2607365)
You're aware that the author is trying to point out the inhumanity of the American justicial system, more than actually defending flogging? (From your link: "Certainly In Defense of Flogging is more about the horrors of our prison-industrial complex than an ode to flogging".)

It probably is interesting, though.

Re:This Guy Has My MacBook by mjallday on Wednesday June 01, 2011 @02:21AM (#2606210)
it's safe to the point of being sterile. (this is a personal opinion, not a fact)
Re:This Guy Has My MacBook by Anti-Ratfish on Wednesday June 01, 2011 @03:29AM (#2606373)
Death sentence for minor infraction. Only minor exaggeration. Oh, an your vote is numbered, careful who you vote for.
Re:This Guy Has My MacBook by arethuza on Wednesday June 01, 2011 @07:53AM (#2606868)
You're not alone - if I had to pick one word to describe Singapore it would also be "sterile".
Re:This Guy Has My MacBook by nikcub on Wednesday June 01, 2011 @05:23AM (#2606606)
Re:This Guy Has My MacBook by bh42222 on Wednesday June 01, 2011 @12:28PM (#2608011)
Gibson is a great writer, but what's "wrong" with Singapore is not what he describes. If you wonder what Singapore would be as a democracy, look at Switzerland.

And there's nothing "wrong" with law and order like in Switzerland. Chaos like in Hong Kong only seems romantic until you become a victim of violent crime. Then all of a sudden its not cute anymore.

Re:This Guy Has My MacBook by inshane on Wednesday June 01, 2011 @02:29PM (#2608618)
Could not agree more. Having lived and worked in Singapore (and Zurich) I can honestly say that for the vast majority of people it is a great place to live. Singaporeans and expats all acknowledge that yes, it is more strict than the US or Australia, but unless you enjoy things like vandalizing cars, selling drugs, or stealing street signs you can live exactly how you like, with the added peace of mind of knowing that you have a near zero chance of being the victim of violent crime.

I am guessing (perhaps incorrectly) that most of the people who talk about what is "wrong" with Singapore have either only been there once for a few days or have never been and only base their opinion of the place on the story about the American kid who got caned.

Re:This Guy Has My MacBook by Travis on Tuesday May 31, 2011 @07:50PM (#2605203)
Broken windows theory has its share of criticism. In Tipping Point (or maybe it was one of his others, or freakonomics), they are able to connect the drop in crime rates with both the legalization of abortion and/or the banishment of leaded gasoline. Point being, it's nearly impossible to separate causality in sociological phenomenon.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broken_windows_theory#Criticism...

Re:This Guy Has My MacBook by TrevorBurnham on Tuesday May 31, 2011 @07:58PM (#2605228)
It was Freakonomics that theorized that abortion was the cause of the drop in crime (which occurred nationwide as it was happening in NYC, though not to the same degree). Gladwell has debated with the authors of Freakonomics (primarily the economist Steven Levitt) about this.

See http://gladwell.typepad.com/gladwellcom/2006/03/thoughts_on_..., http://www.freakonomics.com/2006/03/09/malcolm-gladwell-on-t..., http://gladwell.typepad.com/gladwellcom/2006/03/levitt_and_d...

Re:This Guy Has My MacBook by stretchwithme on Tuesday May 31, 2011 @08:18PM (#2605289)
The changes made in New York bore fruit within a few years.

The trends you're referring to take decades. And don't seem to have worked in Oakland.

Re:This Guy Has My MacBook by CamperBob on Tuesday May 31, 2011 @08:58PM (#2605403)
Oakland has tried zero-tolerance policing?
Re:This Guy Has My MacBook by ars on Tuesday May 31, 2011 @09:24PM (#2605471)
He means abortion and leaded gas.
Re:This Guy Has My MacBook by Duff on Wednesday June 01, 2011 @10:48AM (#2607483)
Oakland sounds like a more permissive place that attracts scum. In NYC, they kick you out of the projects when you misbehave and scumbags end up migrating to smaller cities.
Re:This Guy Has My MacBook by Produce on Thursday June 02, 2011 @10:18AM (#2612048)
I think that zero-tolerance policing does absolutely nothing to tackle crime, it only drives it deeper underground, or to other places. In order to stop a weed from growing, you do not cut it whenever it grows past an arbitrary point, you take away it's food, light and water instead. Effectively and permanently tackling crime involves a similar approach - address the root issues and you no longer have crime.

So what causes people to steal? They are poor, they want more than they currently have because what they have is not enough. If you want them to stop stealing, then society must become fairer. As it stands, resources are allocated through a sort of popularity contest. Those at the top of the social popularity ranking get the most.

Why do people kill and fight? For respect. Society looks down on the poor, it avoids them, laughs at them and criticizes them for being where they are without having walked in their shoes. Want people to stop being so violent? Show them some love and put the batons away.

Not to mention the double standard of having a bunch of hired thugs (the police) keeping us safe from a bunch of hired thugs (gangsters). I don't want any thugs in my neighborhood.