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Re:McKinsey to pay $573M to settle claims over opioid crisis... by alexpetralia on Thursday February 04, 2021 @09:15AM (#26025451)
I know it's fashionable to hate on MBAs, but I am not entirely convinced engineers are any better equipped with skills such as: requirements gathering, scoping, presenting, project management, competitive research, financial modeling, memo writing, and strategic planning. I don't believe these are truly vacuous activities, and - loathe as I am to say - MBAs may be the best trained to do this.

(Disclosure: I do not have an MBA)

Re:McKinsey to pay $573M to settle claims over opioid crisis... by olsonjeffery on Thursday February 04, 2021 @09:30AM (#26025571)
I'm fine stating that engineers from non-elite schools are just as well equipped for the tasks you describe, but that wasn't the GP's contention. The point is that McKinsey make bad recommendations that have demonstrably bad outcomes.

Their fingerprints are all over numerous bad decisions in business and government in the past few decades[0]. These are the bare minimum, because there are quite likely many negative outcomes they have championed in their role as consultants that were never publicized or reported on.

Totally separate from the above is their absolutely mercenary tendency to work with anyone who will pay them[1][2].

[0] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McKinsey_%26_Company#Controver... [1] - https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/15/world/asia/mckinsey-china... [2] - https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/mckinseys-work-for-...

Re:McKinsey to pay $573M to settle claims over opioid crisis... by ath92 on Thursday February 04, 2021 @09:38AM (#26025637)
McKinsey has 27,000 employees. That's the population of an entire town. I'm not saying that the things described in the links you posted here aren't bad, but I think it's important to remember with this many employees, there will always be someone doing something that you don't agree with.
Re:McKinsey to pay $573M to settle claims over opioid crisis... by olsonjeffery on Thursday February 04, 2021 @09:47AM (#26025725)
To be clear: Is your assertion that, because these outcomes aren't a deliberate conspiracy, we have to let them happen because of... what, exactly? Whether it's an emergent feature of this style of consulting or a firm consisting of the worst human beings is besides the point.

Elite management consulting firms (McKinsey, Deloitte, Bain, etc) exist to enable the worst impulses of leadership across the spectrum. The ends certainly justify scrutinizing the means.

Re:McKinsey to pay $573M to settle claims over opioid crisis... by _jal on Thursday February 04, 2021 @10:22AM (#26026060)
This assertion is both true and irrelevant. Try:

"Comcast customer service has a huge number of employees. I'm not saying there aren't jerks in there, but..."

Devolving corporate responsibility (for the bad stuff) to individuals is of course the corporate preference. But at some point you run in to the "only the best people" problem - McKinsey hires them, trains them, assigns them and pays them, no matter how slippery McKinsey PR is, I keep seeing that name, McKinsey.

Re:McKinsey to pay $573M to settle claims over opioid crisis... by ChrisLomont on Thursday February 04, 2021 @10:23AM (#26026066)
Cherry picking bad examples is not how to evaluate how often McKinsey "make bad recommendations that have demonstrably bad outcomes".

Any company the size of McKinsey around as long as McKinsey will have success and failure stories.

The proper way to evalaute is to take all things McKinsey did, normalize for background, and see how it performs compared to other methods of solving the same problems.

Cherry picking to make a claim is the 2nd worst form of evidence, outranked only by outright lying.

Re:McKinsey to pay $573M to settle claims over opioid crisis... by olsonjeffery on Thursday February 04, 2021 @10:51AM (#26026379)
"We can never criticize something unless we can contemplate the totality of it" isn't constructive or helpful and has (from my interpretation) the net effect of stating the the status quo is fine. Is that what you're contending?

Firms like McKinsey, for reasons of trade secrets, confidentiality wrt their client book, discretion because of the nature of their work, etc don't have data available about the completeness of their outcomes. In fact, their white papers focus exclusively on successes. What about instances where their contribution has a not-zero impact (we could even include and offset the cost of their consultations against the total impact of advise offered, assuming it's followed)? Do you have a proposal for how to conduct such an analysis?

Furthermore, I would offer that much of the nature of their impacts isn't something we can know with mathematical precision and exists in the realms of the social sciences (a broad domain known to have major skew problems when measurements are taken, if at all).

So we are left with optics and moral/ethical assessments of the work they have done. Taking this into account, I am content with this approach and the conclusions I have arrived at.

Re:McKinsey to pay $573M to settle claims over opioid crisis... by ChrisLomont on Friday February 05, 2021 @12:59PM (#26039216)
>"We can never criticize something unless we can contemplate the totality of it" isn't constructive or helpful

But you're ok with cherry picking events to suit a narrative when advocating for change? Did you even try to find examples where they were successful in your eyes, or did you simply pick the examples that suit your claims?

>Do you have a proposal for how to conduct such an analysis?

Simply looking at how many customers are repeat customers shows that they're at least doing something their customers are willing to pay for. That's easily a vastly better metric then simply cherry picking examples on one side of an argument.

I'd suspect that current customers are vastly more aware of what value they provide than you'd pick up from news stories, especially if, as you contend, there's no way to know these details from outside views.

They've been around 95 years, 27k employees, 10B in annual revenue, a client list that is incredibly diverse, among every sector of society, among all political parties, and including a huge number of worldwide governments and companies. That alone should make you realize perhaps there is value in what they do, that thousands of customers think so, and that trying to paint them as "McKinsey make bad recommendations that have demonstrably bad outcomes." is probably vastly short-sighted.

You then double down and claim it's probably even worse if one could see inside.

I would weight the opinions of their customers over those obviously cherry picking examples then making un-nuanced and sweeping generalizations. I am content with that approach. Seems more evidence based.

Re:McKinsey to pay $573M to settle claims over opioid crisis... by GreeniFi on Thursday February 04, 2021 @10:35AM (#26026200)
Great comment. I might go further and say that cherry-picking is either an attempt to deceive the listener or oneself. I’d put it on the same pedestal as lying.
Re:McKinsey to pay $573M to settle claims over opioid crisis... by IMTDb on Thursday February 04, 2021 @09:42AM (#26025675)
The problem are not MBA's. The problem is that the incentive of consulting companies are not aligned with the incentive of their clients.

Take a big construction project. In the like of the Berlin airport. What do you think is more profitable for the consulting companies :

a) A well thought project, done in budget and in time. Where the consulting company gets the whole contract + all the bonuses associated with it.

b) A poorly managed project, that gets refinanced multiple times and that ends up being pushed back decades.

It's actually B. Consulting companies love long projects, because this allows them to place consultant for extended periods of time. And any consultant working for a client is a profitable consultant event without bonuses. Consulting companies hate projects that end up shorter than expected, because any bonus they might get from that project ends up being spent on consultant that are waiting for their next assignment.

The main KPI of any consulting company is "the %age of time you consultant are spending 'on assignment' vs 'on the bench'". And long projects where consultant are busy for years are the best way to bring that KPI to 100%, even when the underlying project is a complete mess. The only thing they get from shorter and better managed projects is a better image, which is easier and less expensive to get using marketing technique and PR.

Re:McKinsey to pay $573M to settle claims over opioid crisis... by rvwaveren on Thursday February 04, 2021 @11:11AM (#26026639)
Your point about incentives is exactly the structural problem here. I've been a consultant years ago and on a human level we loved projects that ran well. You feel good about yourself and your team for helping the client quickly and efficiently.

However, zooming out, it's the incentive system that's completely broken: there is no skin in the game. Consulting firms are too detached from the consequences of their advice. Nassim Nicholas Taleb wrote a nice book about this phenomenon: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skin_in_the_Game_(book)

Re:McKinsey to pay $573M to settle claims over opioid crisis... by Dwolb on Thursday February 04, 2021 @12:18PM (#26027443)
I’m with ya hear. It’s actually one of the reasons I love start-ups.

You get to recommend a better approach to an industry or technology and then go off and do it all while having equity in the company.

Re:McKinsey to pay $573M to settle claims over opioid crisis... by alexpetralia on Thursday February 04, 2021 @09:54AM (#26025784)
Yes, and I agree with all the child comments. The principal-agent cost with consulting firms is enormous. In the most uncharitable light, their business model is a wealth transfer insofar as their profit derives directly from maximizing this cost.
Re:McKinsey to pay $573M to settle claims over opioid crisis... by TuringNYC on Thursday February 04, 2021 @12:41PM (#26027738)
This is slightly different (SI/Mgmt consultants vs Strategy consultants) but my experience with SI consultancies was that mid/lower consultants were rewarded based on chaos and fixing chaos not on avoiding chaos.

So if you oversaw the build-out of a system and everything went smoothly, good, but nothing to talk about during promotions.

On the other hand, if there were difficult issues faced and you fire-fought, sent out late emails with decisions to clients, came up with memos documenting tricky situations, awesome! Promotion material!

Of course, sharp consultants figured this out and the sharpest ones looked the other way when design documents had landmines -- just so they had known manageable issues to "manage" and "save the day" with.

Bad incentives, bad outcomes.

Re:McKinsey to pay $573M to settle claims over opioid crisis... by jaredmosley on Thursday February 04, 2021 @11:15AM (#26026688)
Yet, a consulting company that constantly has overrun projects won’t get repeat business nearly as much as the company that comes in and gets things done. PR and marketing may help you land your first project with a client, but it’s only good work that will keep that client coming back to you. Otherwise they’ll replace you with different consultants.
Re:McKinsey to pay $573M to settle claims over opioid crisis... by alisonkisk on Thursday February 04, 2021 @10:27AM (#26026100)
Your complaints apply exactly as well to the internal employees.
Re:McKinsey to pay $573M to settle claims over opioid crisis... by cowanon22 on Thursday February 04, 2021 @09:27AM (#26025550)
I agree with this - young engineers typically do not appreciate the importance of building the right thing vs building it well. However, the OPs point stands. McKinsey and these other companies just regurgitate what is printed in the trade press and charge you top dollars for it. You meet an experienced person once at project kickoff, and then most of your contacts are fresh grads with 2-5 years of experience. They really specialize in attending meetings and conference calls, but are all over the place (from excellent to awful) at actually implementing things.
Re:McKinsey to pay $573M to settle claims over opioid crisis... by MisterTea on Thursday February 04, 2021 @09:36AM (#26025628)
Its a people problem. Actually solving problems takes a particular kind of mind. A degree is just a piece of paper which certifies the fact that you sat through lectures on subjects and you successfully regurgitated said lecture material on another piece of paper from memory.

The issue with the MBA field is that it tends to attract power hungry narcissists/psychopaths who enjoy holding power over others. Engineers like to tinker with stuff and be left alone.

Re:McKinsey to pay $573M to settle claims over opioid crisis... by alisonkisk on Thursday February 04, 2021 @10:28AM (#26026120)
Posting this comment on a website dedicated to self-promotion of engineers who want to get rich quickly is an interesting choice.
Re:McKinsey to pay $573M to settle claims over opioid crisis... by the8472 on Thursday February 04, 2021 @09:24AM (#26025529)
This is about a specific consulting company, not MBAs in general.
Re:McKinsey to pay $573M to settle claims over opioid crisis... by TheOtherHobbes on Thursday February 04, 2021 @10:13AM (#26025964)
I'm fairly sure it's much easier to teach engineers how to business than it is to teach MBAs how to engineer.
Re:McKinsey to pay $573M to settle claims over opioid crisis... by alisonkisk on Thursday February 04, 2021 @10:25AM (#26026087)
Maybe companies hire MBAs as a perk/morale-booster for the engineers, so they have someone to unite in their hate against and not fight with each other over their failures.
Re:McKinsey to pay $573M to settle claims over opioid crisis... by hehehaha on Thursday February 04, 2021 @09:30AM (#26025572)
Getting an MBA right now is a clear signal that you have zero skills.