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Re:YC is a cult by pc on Tuesday July 29, 2008 @12:51AM (#260087)

  - People are put in physically or emotionally distressing situations;
  - Their problems are reduced to one simple explanation, which is repeatedly emphasized;
  - They receive unconditional love, acceptance, and attention from a charismatic; [sic]
  - They get a new identity based on the group;
  - They are subject to entrapment (isolation from friends, relatives, and the mainstream
  culture) and their access to information is severely controlled.
To the extent that YC fits this definition, so does any intense and ambitious collaboration. Take the Manhattan Project, the Apollo missions, and some parts of the Human Genome Project -- they all fit criteria 1, 2, 4, and the first part of 5 to a much greater extent than YC ever does.

So it looks like we have a broken test function. (Though perhaps it's just missing a type-check -- maybe it's only supposed to be applied to religions.)

Re:YC is a cult by hassing on Tuesday July 29, 2008 @05:35AM (#260279)
These criteria fit almost anything that requires dedication.

Anything from starting a family to funding a company to joining a professional sports team.

(except maybe "They are subject to entrapment (isolation from friends, relatives, and the mainstream culture) and their access to information is severely controlled." but I don't see how startups are isolated and have their access to information controlled.)

Re:YC is a cult by menloparkbum on Tuesday July 29, 2008 @04:15AM (#260241)
I have a family member who was one of the top 10 important people on the Human Genome Project during its heyday and am curious as to what part of that project you think fits those criteria.
Re:YC is a cult by ZachPruckowski on Tuesday July 29, 2008 @10:33AM (#260519)
I think the gentleman was generically referring to a project becoming a driving goal. People who are absolutely dedicated to something do get sucked in during the crunch time. For instance, people doing drama shows (part-time) by tech-week both actors and crew are spending 12+ hours a day on set (1), have the show's problems eclipse their other problems (2), and share a group identity (actors in play X) (4).

This isn't cult behavior, but it passes that test. The difference is that it's temporary behavior. You might work 60-80 hours a week for the first few months, and then you're back to semi-normal schedules except during crunch times. No doubt if you asked this family member, they'd have stories of these crunch times where they had to burn the midnight oil for a good bit.

Re:YC is a cult by yummyfajitas on Tuesday July 29, 2008 @10:35AM (#260521)
Graduate school is compared to a cult. In my opinion, the comparison has some merit, especially outside the sciences.

http://chronicle.com/jobs/news/2004/06/2004062801c.htm

Re:YC is a cult by kschrader on Tuesday July 29, 2008 @01:44AM (#260140)
Come on now, let's not go overboard here and compare YC to the Manhattan Project or Apollo missions. Doing a start-up is hard work, but we're talking about a slightly different scale here.
Re:YC is a cult by h34t on Tuesday July 29, 2008 @03:33AM (#260222)
Why do you think starting a company is less demanding than being a member of the Manhattan Project or Apollo teams?

"Scale" is exactly the right word -- Apollo didn't happen because one person worked more insanely hard than anyone else had worked in the history of the universe. It was a large project with a lot of people (and a lot of science). Yes, a lot of them worked hard. But please, measure effort on a human scale. It doesn't matter whether you're starting a company or developing a new technology for space travel -- if you're pouring your whole life into it, the same psychological conditions can apply.

Re:YC is a cult by krschultz on Tuesday July 29, 2008 @09:09AM (#260422)
Except, in Apollo people died/can die. They didn't work 18 hours a day because you make mistakes at that point. If your "web application" fails, no one really bats an eye. But if you start killing people - it is a bit different. Please don't compare these toy companies that get created, which barely have a business model much less a purpose, to one of the greatest achievements of all time just because you sit in front of your computer for long hours.
Re:YC is a cult by mechanical_fish on Tuesday July 29, 2008 @10:45AM (#260534)
Except, in Apollo people died/can die.

That is a rather silly criterion. All engineers build things that can kill people if they go wrong. That's what engineers do.

You think that social software can't be used to kill people? Do you know the number of people (mostly women) who are murdered each year by stalkers, most of whom are former lovers or spouses? Do you want to bet that none of those stalkers have used, say, Google to help locate their victims?

Do you think that having your identity stolen and your bank account drained can't lead directly to your death? What, do you live in a country where health insurance is guaranteed to all citizens? (Oh, wait -- perhaps you do. Never mind.)

"Toy companies"? Interesting choice of phrase. Here's what one minute's Googling found for me: A court case, Estate of Matthew C. Metzgar v. Playskool, Inc:

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/cgi-bin/getcase.pl?court=3rd&#...

the plaintiffs' expert, E. Patrick McGuire, reported for the record that in one year studied, 1988, there were eleven deaths due to aspiration of small toys or toy parts by children... the plaintiffs submitted a CPSC estimate reported in the House Congressional Record that in each year from 1980-88, an average of 3,200 small children were treated in hospital emergency rooms for toy related ingestion and aspiration injuries. The CPSC also reported that between 1980 and 1991, 186 children choked on small toys, toy parts, and other children's products.

Frankly, from the viewpoint of danger and death, the space program's engineers are wimps: They do very dangerous things, but they only endanger a handful of people at a time. A toy engineer who specifies the wrong paint can kill hundreds of babies at once. Social software is pretty safe, but if the odds that a Facebook user will be killed because of a Facebook design error are as small as one per 100 million user-years [1], the company stands to lose 1 user per year, because they have 90 million active users.

[1] I have no data, but I doubt the odds are that small. I'd be astonished if Facebook hadn't already been a factor in thousands of suicides, for example. One of the reasons why humans are so incredibly talented at socializing is that it's fraught with peril.

Re:YC is a cult by krschultz on Tuesday July 29, 2008 @11:05AM (#260561)
Apollo engineers make a design mistake, it kills people. If you don't like that because it doesn't effect enough people (Sorry I didn't realize that since Facebook serves 100 million people it is more of a feat than going to the moon) lets talk about Boeing. Boeing makes a design mistake, hundreds of people die. That has happened and will continue to happen.

Now you compare that to Facebook - if Facebook or Google goes down, who dies?

And this whole stalker point - wtf does that have to do with anything. Do you think there where no stalkers before the internet? The fact that people misuse something doesn't make it the engineers fault. If I designed kitchen knives and it is used to kill someone is it my fault? Hell no. But if I design a hatch door that doesn't open because of a design flaw, and people die, that is my fault.

That responsibility is the difference.

Re:YC is a cult by pg on Tuesday July 29, 2008 @12:34PM (#260725)
I think the test of the importance of your work is not how much people will be hurt if you screw up, but how much people's lives are improved if you succeed. Some of the most important work is done by people working quietly on mundane problems. Judged by the standard of how much it contributes to people's well-being, Google probably does more for the world than the Apollo missions did.
Re:YC is a cult by jmatt on Tuesday July 29, 2008 @01:30PM (#260814)
Ok PG's response seems almost like flamebait. I had to respond and try to voice my disagreement.

I think the test of the importance of your work is not how much people will be hurt if you screw up, but how much people's lives are improved if you succeed.

I notice you leave out the Manhattan Project. Through which nuclear power was discovered. And later those same researchers discovered Quantum Electrodynamics... which will likely be the next hardware solution for computer science.

Judged by the standard of how much it contributes to people's well-being, Google probably does more for the world than the Apollo missions did.

As for Apollo versus Google - come on. Search (PageRank) & improved web mail (GMail) versus safe commercial air travel, radio and satellite communication, safe structures, better roads, GPS, etc. Maybe there weren't advancements to Computer Science. But, there were major advancements in civil, construction, electrical and mechanical engineering.

The program spurred advances in many areas of technology peripheral to rocketry and manned spaceflight. These include major contributions in the fields of avionics, telecommunications, and computers. The program sparked interest in many fields of engineering, including pioneering work using statistical methods to study the reliability of complex systems made from component parts. The physical facilities and machines which were necessary components of the manned spaceflight program remain as landmarks of civil, mechanical, and electrical engineering. from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollo_program

Separately the Apollo program had a cultural impact on the students and engineers of the time and even today. I know I am inspired by what the program did with such limited technology.

[EDIT: Some details and another quote]

Re:YC is a cult by mechanical_fish on Tuesday July 29, 2008 @01:19PM (#260803)
Some of the most important work is done by people working quietly on mundane problems.

For some reason, this excellent comment reminds me of my visit to the sewers of Paris (they've got a museum down there!)

There's a quote from Napoleon in which he proclaimed that the redesign of the Parisian sewer system (which was commissioned during his reign) was one of the most important things he ever did. It's surprisingly hard to argue with that.

Re:YC is a cult by mechanical_fish on Tuesday July 29, 2008 @01:06PM (#260784)
wtf does that have to do with anything.

I have no idea. This whole conversation seems like a big tangent, and perhaps I'm having a bit too much fun following it off into infinity. Shame on me.

Anyway:

Yes, Boeing has a more difficult task than many startup founders. Of course, there are also more engineers at Boeing, and they've been working on the problem for a much longer time.

Yes, it would be possible for a Google or Facebook design error to get someone killed. Leaks of personal or financial information are potentially deadly. Bad information can be deadly.

No, I can't give you a specific example of a design error (as opposed to a user error) that killed a Google or Facebook user. That's partly because Google and Facebook engineers -- like Boeing engineers, and most engineers worthy of the name -- take their work seriously and don't make many consequential mistakes. But mostly it's because our standards are looser, and reasonably so: The internet is a twelve-year-old invention, and when planes were twelve years old people crashed and burned all the time. They were experimental, and nobody expected anything different.

Standards will change. We're hearing stories of users who followed a Google map off a road and are now suing Google for damages. Right now those stories serve as hilarious examples of lawsuit-happy, stupid people, but perhaps in fifty years middle-class people will expect digital maps to be perfectly accurate, just as today they expect to have clean water and lead-free plumbing, and to always be able to reach an operator by dialing 911 on their cell phone.

Finally, I don't think this sentence is correct, in general:

The fact that people misuse something doesn't make it the engineers fault.

The problem is that there's no bright, shining line. Your kitchen knife example is far to one side of the line: Because kitchen knives are a very well-established technology, most knife accidents are caused by people misusing the product. On the other side of the line is, say, food that's been sweetened with ethylene glycol. That's pretty obviously a design error. And in between is a huge grey area, in which most software falls. Is Boeing responsible when a confused pilot pulls the wrong lever and fails to lower the landing wheels? [1] Is the guy who built the buggy online spreadsheet responsible when the civil engineer uses it to design a bridge that falls down? Well, that's why we have courts -- and why your startup needs to have a lawyer.

[1] I do know that planes used to have a little wheel-shaped lever to guard against this very problem. Maybe they still do. I forget where I learned that -- was it from Donald Norman?

Re:YC is a cult by herdrick on Tuesday July 29, 2008 @02:16PM (#260882)
I know plenty of Boeing engineers and my impression is that they don't feel that way. Several engineers will be jointly designing that hatch door you mention, and they know there will be plenty of careful review by other engineers of everything they do before their thoughts become matter.
Re:YC is a cult by eugenejen on Tuesday July 29, 2008 @04:37PM (#261050)
Although they are not software engineers or scientists, but they adopt open source attitudes long before open source movement in software industry! The process of peer review is exactly what software teams have to learn from those disciplines.
Re:YC is a cult by h34t on Tuesday July 29, 2008 @04:06PM (#261009)
Missing the point. This is not about how important your project is to "society" or how much risk there is of other people dying. This is about what goes on inside your head.

When your brain decides how fast to make your heart pump, or how fast to breathe, or how tense to make your muscles -- it can't tell the difference between flying to the moon and building an ajax alarm clock. All it knows are what your emotional hot-spots are, the parts of you that matter to you... you are entirely capable of inflating the significance of whatever project you're working on just as large as the significance of Apollo to one of its engineers.

Likewise, it's just as easy for the Apollo engineer to say "I was just doing my job" as it is for me to say "Holy shit I'm responsible for my baby nephew's livelihood because his dad is a partner in this startup"...

Other people may not bat an eye when your web app fails, but you sure will.

Re:YC is a cult by pc on Tuesday July 29, 2008 @01:50AM (#260144)
Where did I compare them?

My comment just pointed out that the definition of a cult used in the blog post falls down badly when applied to famous successful projects (which we can presumably agree were not cults), and is therefore either being misused or broken.

Re:YC is a cult by kschrader on Tuesday July 29, 2008 @02:16AM (#260170)
He's using the accepted psychological definition of a cult. The reference is right there in the post.
Re:YC is a cult by theoneill on Tuesday July 29, 2008 @12:45PM (#260743)
Hardly. Did you try following the link in the post? The link text says "textbook definition of a cult," but it's just a link to the Wikipedia article. This list is one of several that appear in the article, and judging from the multiple citations it is an amalgam created from several different sources.
Re:YC is a cult by xlnt on Tuesday July 29, 2008 @02:02AM (#260160)
The way he "compared" them was to say the list of criterion applies to both of them, and that it clearly shouldn't apply to the other things. What's wrong with that?
Re:YC is a cult by ChaitanyaSai on Tuesday July 29, 2008 @09:53AM (#260457)
This is probably the best thread for this question, what is with all these pc, lg, pd (two letter, pg lookalike)usernames? Are you trying to be like him? Or hoping that a not-so-attentive user will read you and or vote you up because of that nickname? There seem to be way more than I see elsewhere, so I don't think abbreviating based on the first and last names is the only explanation.
Re:YC is a cult by echair on Tuesday July 29, 2008 @01:12PM (#260790)
It's just the classic hacker username convention: rms, jmc, rtm, pg, gls, esr, tlb.
Re:YC is a cult by LogicHoleFlaw on Tuesday July 29, 2008 @02:01PM (#260865)
jwz is another well-known example.
Re:YC is a cult by raganwald on Tuesday July 29, 2008 @10:13AM (#260481)
Perhaps (s)he likes to self-identify as politically correct? There can be many, many explanations for the handles people choose. Be careful that you don't find yourself trying to make sense of a Rorschach Inkblot...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rorschach_inkblot_test

Re:YC is a cult by ChaitanyaSai on Tuesday July 29, 2008 @11:30AM (#260604)
Are you saying that the person doing this has no conscious access to his or her own latent reasons? Or that this is just a random pattern like a Rorschach? I don't think it is a random pattern. There are far too many xx usernames here, relative to the other online communities I am a part of.
Re:YC is a cult by raganwald on Tuesday July 29, 2008 @11:43AM (#260636)
I'm saying that trying to surmise what someone is thinking from their choice of a two-character handle is like interpreting a Rorschach, which is not the same thing as saying that the characters themselves are randomly generated.