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Re:Europe's Vaccine Disaster by RcouF1uZ4gsC on Friday January 29, 2021 @08:11PM (#25964967)
> The EU negotiating team, according to people familiar with the talks, was intent on pushing down the price.

In the middle of a pandemic that is literally costing trillions, this seems like the EU negotiators lost sight of the big picture.

Re:Europe's Vaccine Disaster by dogma1138 on Friday January 29, 2021 @08:16PM (#25965009)
More importantly for a vaccine that is sold at cost, the regional price that the IA got was $3 per dose, the commission stepped in trying to get it down to $2.

Israel is paying $30 for its doses of the Pfizer vaccine and likely a similar amount for Moderna.

If the EU would’ve paid as much as Israel is for 500M doses it would only cost them 15 billion $. That is peanuts in the grand scheme of things, the UK spent 16 billion a month to cover furlough payments ffs...

Re:Europe's Vaccine Disaster by maxerickson on Friday January 29, 2021 @08:50PM (#25965215)
The US spent quite a lot, but still came in very conservative. The initial orders (combined) of Pfizer/Moderna were enough for 75 million people. Vs likely demand of at least 200 million.

For $40 billion (which we are estimated to lose every 4 or 5 days), we could have ordered 300 million of each of them.

There's likely some materials that are scarce enough not to waste (we need billions of vaccines globally), but production also seems to have started very late in the trial/approval process.

Re:Europe's Vaccine Disaster by bluGill on Friday January 29, 2021 @09:51PM (#25965540)
The US bet on many different vaccines, most of which haven't arrived yet, but are still on track. On hindsight we can say we should have bet on Pfizer and Moderna, and screwed the rest - such a bet would have allowed them to increase their supply even faster. However that is hindsight, at the time we didn't have any reason to believe their vaccine would even work at all - while the ones we are waiting on we had good reason to believe would work. That some of the ones we are waiting on seem to be much worse is a shock to everyone. Even this much worse is a qualified - they are doing within the expected range, it is just that mRNA is doing so well that makes them bad.
Re:Europe's Vaccine Disaster by Throwawayaerlei on Friday January 29, 2021 @10:10PM (#25965637)
One other issue with the mRNA vaccines is that they're brand new technology, never before produced in bulk, so except for the vials, most everything is new and we're still climbing the learning curve. The production of DNA using E. Coli isn't new, but everything else is, including how physically fragile the end result is. If you shake a thawed out vial of Pfizer/BioNTech's, you're directed to throw it out, of Moderna's, call them.

And I'd say with the exception of Sanofi/GSK's complete failure with the elderly, and AZ/Oxford's mess, we're getting about the results we should have expected. J&J's ambitious only one dose is not super good, but not bad, on the other hand it's also relatively new technology, which I'm not sure they've ever made in bulk in a hurry. Novavax's 89% is quite fine from a protein plus adjuvant vaccine (Sanofi/GSK's was the same), and uses old technology like Protein Sciences', they should be able to make it quickly, and only requires refrigeration. J&J should be about ready to make a FDA Emergency Use Authorization application, the Phase III US trials for Novavax and J&J's two dose 8 weeks apart are still in progress.

But, yes, in speed to market mRNA is new technology that's very very fast. Moderna literally developed their vaccine candidate over a weekend, although that was based on a lot of their prior work, and others in SARS like coronavirus vaccines. Whereas they had their first batch made in weeks, then had to wait a couple of weeks for the results of sterility tests.

Re:Europe's Vaccine Disaster by Animats on Friday January 29, 2021 @11:34PM (#25966094)
One other issue with the mRNA vaccines is that they're brand new technology, never before produced in bulk

Yes, and bulk production is a serious problem. Handling those fragile pieces of RNA, and getting them inside an encapsulation, is a very touchy process. It involves custom microfluidic components made by, apparently, only one company so far.

Remember, this is a minimum viable product. A few year from now, there will probably be regular bulk production of RNA vaccines. But this was all lab scale until recently.

Once the production problem is solved, making new vaccines will be easier. The encapsulation process doesn't much care what it's encapsulating.

Re:Europe's Vaccine Disaster by maxerickson on Friday January 29, 2021 @10:01PM (#25965591)
We could have bet 10 times the resources. Cheap compared to the pandemic!
Re:Europe's Vaccine Disaster by Throwawayaerlei on Friday January 29, 2021 @10:12PM (#25965653)
You keep saying this, but you haven't demonstrated any way in which pouring more money into the process would have significantly speeded up production. Do Intel's massive financial resources allow them to profitably manufacture chips on their 10 nm and 7 nm nodes?
Re:Europe's Vaccine Disaster by maxerickson on Friday January 29, 2021 @10:21PM (#25965693)
I mean, no one has demonstrated that it would not have either, and if you look at my comments, I've acknowledged that we don't have the information to evaluate it. And who cares if we just pissed away $40 billion dollars failing to speed things up.

But look at the distribution. Pfizer submitted their results around Thanksgiving. The FDA decided they'd look at them in a couple weeks. The Federal answer to states complaining that they didn't have funds to get programs running was "figure it out". Stupid, even if you ardently think that states should be the primary vehicle of government.

Re:Europe's Vaccine Disaster by Throwawayaerlei on Friday January 29, 2021 @10:37PM (#25965758)
The Federal answer to states complaining that they didn't have funds to get programs running was "figure it out".

Maybe you shouldn't live in a notoriously failed state when it comes to COVID-19 management (Michigan, which outlawed the sale of garden seeds!, Vermont is the only other state to go that far), we seem to have arrived at the gravamen of your issue with not enough money being spent. My home state is doing just fine in distributing it, spent months planning and is not making excuses about not having enough money. It is calling up the National Guard now that targets of the vaccine are changing, but that was part of the plan all along. And as I previously noted, Pfizer/BioNTech approved Friday, vaccine in hand in my small city Monday morning, first front line healthcare workers vaccinated that day using one vial. Then things really got into gear.

Re:Europe's Vaccine Disaster by maxerickson on Friday January 29, 2021 @10:43PM (#25965799)
My intent with that part of the comment was that the mindset of the people in charge at the Federal level was not one of urgency. There's not big issues with administration here, there's just not vaccines available.

I'm not sure who makes the allocation decision, but the slowest part of the administration here is the Federal partnership with CSV/Walgreens for long term care facilities (the state has allocated 430,000 doses, the programs have administered 100,000). Outside of the LTCF program, ~90% of doses have been administered.

There was a 2 week period where some Walmart decided they needed to close an aisle, no one got fined, no one went to jail, blah blah blah. (Garden stores were ordered closed for a time, but that's not outlawing the sale of seeds).

Re:Europe's Vaccine Disaster by maxerickson on Sunday January 31, 2021 @09:53AM (#25979234)
Re:Europe's Vaccine Disaster by maxerickson on Saturday January 30, 2021 @07:22PM (#25974456)
Came across this today, a panel of economists that believe larger investments would have sped things up considerably, with significant beneficial impact:

https://bfi.uchicago.edu/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/BFI_WP_2...

(summary is in a table on page 6)

Re:Europe's Vaccine Disaster by Throwawayaerlei on Friday January 29, 2021 @09:20PM (#25965369)
Sources? Because everything I've read is that each got a 100 million dose initial order, so that's 100 million people total to begin with. Moderna was already part of Operation Warp Speed, the contract signed 11 August 2020 according to Wikipedia. Pfizer refused to be a part of it, but in July 2020 signed a 100 million dose order contingent on getting regulatory approval. Both have since signed additional 100 million dose contracts, and Moderna an option for an additional 150 million.

Operation Warp Speed worked with Moderna, spent a lot of money on both them and various parts of the supply chain to do the best to manufacture this new type vaccine as fast as possible, and I've not heard anything about their failing in their promises. Whereas Pfizer initially went it alone, and starting in December has been failing to keep their promises everywhere, now even shutting down their plant in Belgium to increase capacity.

Re:Europe's Vaccine Disaster by maxerickson on Friday January 29, 2021 @09:26PM (#25965396)
Yeah, I appear to have misunderstood or misremembered something, the Moderna order was 100 million doses.

It's very hard to evaluate whether they have proceeded on the fastest possible timeline scaling up the production. Which whether their goals were ambitious enough is just as important as whether they are hitting them.

Re:Europe's Vaccine Disaster by Hunisgung on Friday January 29, 2021 @08:36PM (#25965129)
> the regional price that the IA got was $3 per dose, the commission stepped in trying to get it down to $2.

Meanwhile in France, I can do a RT-PCR test paid by the state (around 50$ AFAIK) every other day with no question asked.

Re:Europe's Vaccine Disaster by peteretep on Friday January 29, 2021 @09:37PM (#25965460)
My understanding is that the rich countries like France were willing to do a deal on day 1, but the commission stepped in to negotiate for everyone
Re:Europe's Vaccine Disaster by flor1s on Saturday January 30, 2021 @09:02AM (#25969123)
Having all countries in the EU in the same boat when it comes to vaccines seems like a good thing to me. Now we have this spat between the EU and UK, but if every nation in the EU negotiated by themselves we might have a conflict between EU countries themselves... That's not to say the EU didn't screw up along the way.
Re:Europe's Vaccine Disaster by jacquesm on Friday January 29, 2021 @10:37PM (#25965761)
They could have wanted to pay that much but that does not mean that the vaccines would have been there in that quantity. Much easier to fill Israel's order at that price than Europe's at the same price or even a higher one.
Re:Europe's Vaccine Disaster by neximo64 on Friday January 29, 2021 @11:01PM (#25965900)
The teams in the UK and EU were led by two seasoned professionals, an EU trade negotiator, & in the UK a VC (as controversial as that is). The outcomes summarise the personalities of the two involved.

Success for a negotiator is the cheapest cost. Success for a VC is return on investment. Both won spectacularly on their own fronts.

Re:Europe's Vaccine Disaster by robotmay on Friday January 29, 2021 @08:15PM (#25964995)
I was under the assumption that the Oxford/AstraZeneca vaccine was being produced at cost under the agreement with Oxford University. I'm curious as to what cost savings they were after - possibly on distribution or in establishing the manufacturing bases?
Re:Europe's Vaccine Disaster by dogma1138 on Friday January 29, 2021 @08:17PM (#25965020)
It is, but there are still regional price differences due to labor, manufacturing and supply chain costs.

However trying to get a $3 vaccine down to $2 is laughable for what is essentially the wealthiest trading block on the planet, even their poorest member could afford to cover the entire union.

Re:Europe's Vaccine Disaster by jeofken on Friday January 29, 2021 @08:25PM (#25965061)
To be precise, it’s the government forcing business to close that is costing trillions. The vast majority are not in the risk group at all, and would had continued to provide value if they could. Instead, we see economic shutdown and governments speeding QE up to the next level to keep markets afloat by inflation. Smells like Weimar but with smartphones
Re:Europe's Vaccine Disaster by roenxi on Friday January 29, 2021 @08:35PM (#25965125)
I assume literally the entire job of the negotiating team is to negotiate the price down. If their job isn't to negotiate the price down, what are the negotiators hired for?

If they are just going to take the market price, there doesn't need to be a negotiation team. Just let companies sell the vaccine to whoever at whatever price.

They didn't lose sight of the big picture, they did what they were there to do.

Re:Europe's Vaccine Disaster by bluGill on Friday January 29, 2021 @09:55PM (#25965568)
The job of negotiation is to get a good deal for all. Price is only one part of that - if you only focus on price bad things happen. too low a price and the supplier goes out of business before you get all the product. Too low a price and your supplier doesn't have enough profit to remain in business for the next time you need something. Too low a price and the supplier won't negotiate with you at all next time you need something.

Of course too high a price has issues as well. It is important to pay attention to price. Sometimes you need to break away from a deal because it will never work out.

Long term the best deals are win-win.

Re:Europe's Vaccine Disaster by Diggsey on Friday January 29, 2021 @08:43PM (#25965169)
A negotiation can be for anything: it could be to include additional safe-guards in the contract for example...

You could even negotiate a higher price in exchange for something more valuable (for example, paying extra per vaccine in exchange for building more capacity sooner...)

Re:Europe's Vaccine Disaster by roenxi on Friday January 29, 2021 @08:53PM (#25965226)
A "Commission President Ursula von der Leyen sends negotiators to get highest vaccine price worldwide!" headline would be even worse for the negotiators political career than "[She seeks] to Duck Responsibility". They aren't going to negotiate higher prices on a vaccine in a global emergency.
Re:Europe's Vaccine Disaster by dogma1138 on Friday January 29, 2021 @08:58PM (#25965258)
Why not? Israel did just that, they offered double the US price for their doses + full access to the medical data.

They vaccinated half their population whilst the EU is stuck making a surprised Pikachu face.

Re:Europe's Vaccine Disaster by beagle3 on Saturday January 30, 2021 @04:18AM (#25967597)
True, but do note Israel’s population is 1/50 of Europe, so the logistics of accommodating it (on the producer side) are relatively easy.
Re:Europe's Vaccine Disaster by dogma1138 on Saturday January 30, 2021 @07:27AM (#25968528)
Yes, but the GDP of the EU is $19 trillion, the GDP of Israel is $350 billion, that’s 1/50th of the population and 1/54th of the GDP.

While I’m aware that things don’t scale the same, and that currently the supply chain has its own hard restrictions on production you can’t argue that paying more won’t allow you to ramp up production faster, this is also what the UK did.

The EU could’ve allocated much more funding and ordered much more doses of both approved vaccines and vaccine candidates they haven’t they’ve put most of the eggs in the AZ basket and then tried to haggle on the price of the cheapest vaccine sold at cost.

Re:Europe's Vaccine Disaster by beagle3 on Saturday January 30, 2021 @09:24AM (#25969299)
Most definitely agree. I was only referring to the fact that for Israel it was sufficient to throw more money at the problem to get enough doses; For the entire EU, it is required, but not sufficient condition.
Re:Europe's Vaccine Disaster by grey-area on Saturday January 30, 2021 @04:53AM (#25967762)
Fast, good, cheap. Pick two.

Their job is to make the appropriate choices. In this situation cheap is not a priority due to the costs of delay.