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Re:Europe's Vaccine Disaster by dogma1138 on Friday January 29, 2021 @08:16PM (#25965009)
More importantly for a vaccine that is sold at cost, the regional price that the IA got was $3 per dose, the commission stepped in trying to get it down to $2.

Israel is paying $30 for its doses of the Pfizer vaccine and likely a similar amount for Moderna.

If the EU would’ve paid as much as Israel is for 500M doses it would only cost them 15 billion $. That is peanuts in the grand scheme of things, the UK spent 16 billion a month to cover furlough payments ffs...

Re:Europe's Vaccine Disaster by maxerickson on Friday January 29, 2021 @08:50PM (#25965215)
The US spent quite a lot, but still came in very conservative. The initial orders (combined) of Pfizer/Moderna were enough for 75 million people. Vs likely demand of at least 200 million.

For $40 billion (which we are estimated to lose every 4 or 5 days), we could have ordered 300 million of each of them.

There's likely some materials that are scarce enough not to waste (we need billions of vaccines globally), but production also seems to have started very late in the trial/approval process.

Re:Europe's Vaccine Disaster by bluGill on Friday January 29, 2021 @09:51PM (#25965540)
The US bet on many different vaccines, most of which haven't arrived yet, but are still on track. On hindsight we can say we should have bet on Pfizer and Moderna, and screwed the rest - such a bet would have allowed them to increase their supply even faster. However that is hindsight, at the time we didn't have any reason to believe their vaccine would even work at all - while the ones we are waiting on we had good reason to believe would work. That some of the ones we are waiting on seem to be much worse is a shock to everyone. Even this much worse is a qualified - they are doing within the expected range, it is just that mRNA is doing so well that makes them bad.
Re:Europe's Vaccine Disaster by Throwawayaerlei on Friday January 29, 2021 @10:10PM (#25965637)
One other issue with the mRNA vaccines is that they're brand new technology, never before produced in bulk, so except for the vials, most everything is new and we're still climbing the learning curve. The production of DNA using E. Coli isn't new, but everything else is, including how physically fragile the end result is. If you shake a thawed out vial of Pfizer/BioNTech's, you're directed to throw it out, of Moderna's, call them.

And I'd say with the exception of Sanofi/GSK's complete failure with the elderly, and AZ/Oxford's mess, we're getting about the results we should have expected. J&J's ambitious only one dose is not super good, but not bad, on the other hand it's also relatively new technology, which I'm not sure they've ever made in bulk in a hurry. Novavax's 89% is quite fine from a protein plus adjuvant vaccine (Sanofi/GSK's was the same), and uses old technology like Protein Sciences', they should be able to make it quickly, and only requires refrigeration. J&J should be about ready to make a FDA Emergency Use Authorization application, the Phase III US trials for Novavax and J&J's two dose 8 weeks apart are still in progress.

But, yes, in speed to market mRNA is new technology that's very very fast. Moderna literally developed their vaccine candidate over a weekend, although that was based on a lot of their prior work, and others in SARS like coronavirus vaccines. Whereas they had their first batch made in weeks, then had to wait a couple of weeks for the results of sterility tests.

Re:Europe's Vaccine Disaster by Animats on Friday January 29, 2021 @11:34PM (#25966094)
One other issue with the mRNA vaccines is that they're brand new technology, never before produced in bulk

Yes, and bulk production is a serious problem. Handling those fragile pieces of RNA, and getting them inside an encapsulation, is a very touchy process. It involves custom microfluidic components made by, apparently, only one company so far.

Remember, this is a minimum viable product. A few year from now, there will probably be regular bulk production of RNA vaccines. But this was all lab scale until recently.

Once the production problem is solved, making new vaccines will be easier. The encapsulation process doesn't much care what it's encapsulating.

Re:Europe's Vaccine Disaster by maxerickson on Friday January 29, 2021 @10:01PM (#25965591)
We could have bet 10 times the resources. Cheap compared to the pandemic!
Re:Europe's Vaccine Disaster by Throwawayaerlei on Friday January 29, 2021 @10:12PM (#25965653)
You keep saying this, but you haven't demonstrated any way in which pouring more money into the process would have significantly speeded up production. Do Intel's massive financial resources allow them to profitably manufacture chips on their 10 nm and 7 nm nodes?
Re:Europe's Vaccine Disaster by maxerickson on Friday January 29, 2021 @10:21PM (#25965693)
I mean, no one has demonstrated that it would not have either, and if you look at my comments, I've acknowledged that we don't have the information to evaluate it. And who cares if we just pissed away $40 billion dollars failing to speed things up.

But look at the distribution. Pfizer submitted their results around Thanksgiving. The FDA decided they'd look at them in a couple weeks. The Federal answer to states complaining that they didn't have funds to get programs running was "figure it out". Stupid, even if you ardently think that states should be the primary vehicle of government.

Re:Europe's Vaccine Disaster by Throwawayaerlei on Friday January 29, 2021 @10:37PM (#25965758)
The Federal answer to states complaining that they didn't have funds to get programs running was "figure it out".

Maybe you shouldn't live in a notoriously failed state when it comes to COVID-19 management (Michigan, which outlawed the sale of garden seeds!, Vermont is the only other state to go that far), we seem to have arrived at the gravamen of your issue with not enough money being spent. My home state is doing just fine in distributing it, spent months planning and is not making excuses about not having enough money. It is calling up the National Guard now that targets of the vaccine are changing, but that was part of the plan all along. And as I previously noted, Pfizer/BioNTech approved Friday, vaccine in hand in my small city Monday morning, first front line healthcare workers vaccinated that day using one vial. Then things really got into gear.

Re:Europe's Vaccine Disaster by maxerickson on Friday January 29, 2021 @10:43PM (#25965799)
My intent with that part of the comment was that the mindset of the people in charge at the Federal level was not one of urgency. There's not big issues with administration here, there's just not vaccines available.

I'm not sure who makes the allocation decision, but the slowest part of the administration here is the Federal partnership with CSV/Walgreens for long term care facilities (the state has allocated 430,000 doses, the programs have administered 100,000). Outside of the LTCF program, ~90% of doses have been administered.

There was a 2 week period where some Walmart decided they needed to close an aisle, no one got fined, no one went to jail, blah blah blah. (Garden stores were ordered closed for a time, but that's not outlawing the sale of seeds).

Re:Europe's Vaccine Disaster by maxerickson on Sunday January 31, 2021 @09:53AM (#25979234)
Re:Europe's Vaccine Disaster by maxerickson on Saturday January 30, 2021 @07:22PM (#25974456)
Came across this today, a panel of economists that believe larger investments would have sped things up considerably, with significant beneficial impact:

https://bfi.uchicago.edu/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/BFI_WP_2...

(summary is in a table on page 6)

Re:Europe's Vaccine Disaster by Throwawayaerlei on Friday January 29, 2021 @09:20PM (#25965369)
Sources? Because everything I've read is that each got a 100 million dose initial order, so that's 100 million people total to begin with. Moderna was already part of Operation Warp Speed, the contract signed 11 August 2020 according to Wikipedia. Pfizer refused to be a part of it, but in July 2020 signed a 100 million dose order contingent on getting regulatory approval. Both have since signed additional 100 million dose contracts, and Moderna an option for an additional 150 million.

Operation Warp Speed worked with Moderna, spent a lot of money on both them and various parts of the supply chain to do the best to manufacture this new type vaccine as fast as possible, and I've not heard anything about their failing in their promises. Whereas Pfizer initially went it alone, and starting in December has been failing to keep their promises everywhere, now even shutting down their plant in Belgium to increase capacity.

Re:Europe's Vaccine Disaster by maxerickson on Friday January 29, 2021 @09:26PM (#25965396)
Yeah, I appear to have misunderstood or misremembered something, the Moderna order was 100 million doses.

It's very hard to evaluate whether they have proceeded on the fastest possible timeline scaling up the production. Which whether their goals were ambitious enough is just as important as whether they are hitting them.

Re:Europe's Vaccine Disaster by Hunisgung on Friday January 29, 2021 @08:36PM (#25965129)
> the regional price that the IA got was $3 per dose, the commission stepped in trying to get it down to $2.

Meanwhile in France, I can do a RT-PCR test paid by the state (around 50$ AFAIK) every other day with no question asked.

Re:Europe's Vaccine Disaster by peteretep on Friday January 29, 2021 @09:37PM (#25965460)
My understanding is that the rich countries like France were willing to do a deal on day 1, but the commission stepped in to negotiate for everyone
Re:Europe's Vaccine Disaster by flor1s on Saturday January 30, 2021 @09:02AM (#25969123)
Having all countries in the EU in the same boat when it comes to vaccines seems like a good thing to me. Now we have this spat between the EU and UK, but if every nation in the EU negotiated by themselves we might have a conflict between EU countries themselves... That's not to say the EU didn't screw up along the way.
Re:Europe's Vaccine Disaster by jacquesm on Friday January 29, 2021 @10:37PM (#25965761)
They could have wanted to pay that much but that does not mean that the vaccines would have been there in that quantity. Much easier to fill Israel's order at that price than Europe's at the same price or even a higher one.