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Re:Ask HN: How is GME not a pump-and-dump? by jfengel on Friday January 29, 2021 @09:48AM (#25957761)
I've seen this argument several times and I don't understand it. Why can't they buy >100% of the shares in exactly the same way they were able to sell >100% of the shares? They buy some shares, return them to their owners, and then buy them up again?

They don't even need to buy up 100%. They only need to buy up 20%. Then they're back in the situation of being under 100% shorted, and problem no longer applies.

With such a large short interest it means that a motivated or coordinated buyer can force them to cover it at highly inflated prices, and that's their fault. But doesn't seem to be impossible just because the interest is >100%, merely very expensive (perhaps bankruptcy expensive).

Am I missing something?

Re:Ask HN: How is GME not a pump-and-dump? by bananabiscuit on Friday January 29, 2021 @09:53AM (#25957805)
I don’t think you are missing anything. This magic 100% number is somewhat of a meme going around.
Re:Ask HN: How is GME not a pump-and-dump? by noodle on Saturday January 30, 2021 @02:47AM (#25967154)
> Am I missing something?

A few things. I'm not an expert, but:

> They don't even need to buy up 100%. They only need to buy up 20%. Then they're back in the situation of being under 100% shorted, and problem no longer applies.

They're still in a very tough position. Buying 20% will raise the cost of the stock further, since they're buying it at market price which would drive up the price. And raising the price makes maintaining the rest of their shorts more expensive. That's ultimately the goal - make and maintain a higher share price, which would force shorts to buy instead of continue to pay to maintain their position, which in and of itself would make the stock price grow.

This is also why /r/wsb is interested in other large but not greater than 100% short interest stocks. They might not get squeezed as much as GME but the pressure would still result in a similar situation with lesser gains.

This becomes much less possible as the short interest shrinks or the lower impact you have on the share price.

Re:Ask HN: How is GME not a pump-and-dump? by nowherebeen on Friday January 29, 2021 @10:06AM (#25957939)
> Why can't they buy >100% of the shares in exactly the same way they were able to sell >100% of the shares

When a company issues shares, there is a finite amount. It determines the the percentage of the company someone owns. So if there is 100 shares, you own 20, it would mean you own 20%. When a company goes public, they typically give, say 10%, to the market. So those 10 shares exist only. You either stock split or issues more shares. But issuing more shares would mean you own less percentage (and who would do that to themselves without a payoff).

You can buy more than 100% if you buy a financial instrument that has its underlying value tied to the company stock price (i.e. vanilla equity derivative), but its price is determined by the stock and not the other way around.

> Then they're back in the situation of being under 100% shorted

Let's say now there are 5 hedge funds that hold GameStock. Each has 20% (because hedge funds bet big, not small). The first one to cover will lose the least. You never want to be the last one because you lose the most and liquidity would be scarce because no one is willing to sell you their shares since its going up, meaning you would be double screwed. With each player that leaves, it causes a cascading effect.

> With such a large short interest it means that a motivated or coordinated buyer can force them to cover it at highly inflated prices, and that's their fault.

Yup.

edit:

The only people that can issue more shares without dilution is the Federal Reserve. They have a count of how much money is in flow, and can print money when need. But that only works if people believe in it. It hasn't been backed by gold in a long time. Otherwise, you will be in the same situation as some European countries prior to WW2 - hyperinflation (i.e dilution).

Re:Ask HN: How is GME not a pump-and-dump? by TuringNYC on Saturday January 30, 2021 @08:33AM (#25968902)
FYI the equity derivative might solve the money pit problem in theory but not if the instruments are in separate net margin accounts — then you may still get margin calls from one counter-party even when the other is showing you a gain.
Re:Ask HN: How is GME not a pump-and-dump? by nowherebeen on Tuesday February 02, 2021 @11:07AM (#26002642)
Seems like they opted for purchasing long call options and short put options; effectively, locking in their losses. Will be interesting to see how this ends. Either the price drops back down to a reasonable price, they can exit their position, or they will continue to delay closing their position. Either way, it will be awhile because this plays out.
Re:Ask HN: How is GME not a pump-and-dump? by Wheaties466 on Friday January 29, 2021 @10:22AM (#25958115)
so theres several different ways to buy calls and put.

Theres calls and covered calls. Some brokers will only let you sell the later due to the margin needed. With a covered call you have to own the stock and hold it in your portfolio. With a non covered call, if your option gets exercised you then buy the stock at market value and sell to the executor at the agreed upon price.

basically when people are saying they shorted over 100% of the stock they are saying that its a non covered PUT contract and there isn't enough stock to cover the volume of all the PUT options contracts.

BUT what we don't know is when this PUT options contracts expire, which could basically make all of this worth fairly worthless. If the shorts option contracts don't expire til next year then this really doesn't matter to them.

Generally the P&L dept will make them stagger the options contracts over dates spanning the next year or so though.

I would recommend reading up on call and put options for more information.

Re:Ask HN: How is GME not a pump-and-dump? by beagle3 on Saturday January 30, 2021 @04:44AM (#25967717)
These shorts aren’t options. They are real (borrowed) shares - which is what makes it much harder for the short sellers to wiggle out, and every price increase makes them lose more money. (If it were puts, they’d lose the premium paid but wouldn’t care about price going up further)
Re:Ask HN: How is GME not a pump-and-dump? by stevofolife on Friday January 29, 2021 @10:00AM (#25957869)
You're also missing the fact that these hedge funds are bleeding interest per day. So buying 20% only will not suffice.
Re:Ask HN: How is GME not a pump-and-dump? by jfengel on Friday January 29, 2021 @10:54AM (#25958558)
I take it the interest is based on the current price? If so, that would make some sense: if they're paying (say) .1% per day on a stock that is worth 100x the amount you got for shorting it, you'll gradually burn through all of the cash you got for the short.

You're still in a kind of race to see whether it will stay that high for long, or if people will eventually want to take their profits. But it definitely puts pressure on you to reduce your exposure to that, even at the inflated price.

Re:Ask HN: How is GME not a pump-and-dump? by tashmahalic on Friday January 29, 2021 @12:53PM (#25960183)
Re:Ask HN: How is GME not a pump-and-dump? by LatteLazy on Friday January 29, 2021 @10:02AM (#25957894)
Exactly. Short seller buys 100 shares, return shares to lender, lender sells back to short seller, repeat as many times as needed to close
Re:Ask HN: How is GME not a pump-and-dump? by t0mas88 on Friday January 29, 2021 @05:05PM (#25963312)
Except that the lender is seeing the price skyrocket, so they're not selling it back.
Re:Ask HN: How is GME not a pump-and-dump? by LatteLazy on Friday January 29, 2021 @05:33PM (#25963647)
Surely the price is soaring because that's what it takes for the seller to keep selling it back?