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Re:IKEA buys 11,000 acres of U.S. forest to keep it from bei... by DoingIsLearning on Wednesday January 27, 2021 @05:24AM (#25926450)
Buying rain forest would mean nothing for illegal rare wood markets, or illegal gold mining, or illegal forest fires to stretch cattle grazing area.

Most people grossly underestimate how wild and pretty much lawless inland rain-forest regions are in the Brazilian state of Amazonas. There are small pockets of settlements everywhere but except for Manaus there is very sparse infrastructure, Police will take days to get somewhere by boat, Healthcare deep in the forest is pretty much a death sentence if you happen to need urgent critical care. You have people that have never been registered with social security, etc.

My point is that having a piece of paper saying that a specific rosewood tree belongs to IKEA or <NGO> would mean nothing, by the time you try to enforce this, the tree would have been fellen, cut, and shipped on a boat to the highest bidder.

If you want actual change in the region you need to develop the local economy with jobs that allow these people to be productive in a way that is somehow more profitable than the existing illegal activities. But the practicalities of this are much harder to implement then simply blank buying forest land.

Re:IKEA buys 11,000 acres of U.S. forest to keep it from bei... by amelius on Wednesday January 27, 2021 @06:13AM (#25926805)
> by the time you try to enforce this, the tree would have been fellen, cut, and shipped on a boat to the highest bidder.

That could be true, but only holds for one tree (or a small number of trees). The problem starts when people build a business around trees. By the time their businesses are fully operational you can enforce laws. And this makes it unattractive to even start in this line of business.

Re:IKEA buys 11,000 acres of U.S. forest to keep it from bei... by DoingIsLearning on Wednesday January 27, 2021 @06:53AM (#25927116)
You have entire gold mining illegal operations with heavy machinery deep in the forest without any law enforcement to halt them. Murder of indigenous locals in clashes with illegal miners is also not uncommon. Similarly to coca farming in Colombia they simply relocate to another unknown location periodically.

Even assuming good faith from Brazilian law enforcement/military the remoteness and shear size of the rain forest makes it a huge challenge to enforce any rule of Law.

Re:IKEA buys 11,000 acres of U.S. forest to keep it from bei... by amelius on Wednesday January 27, 2021 @07:08AM (#25927231)
It seems there is some hope:

https://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/images/145988/tracking-ama...

> A (...) satellite-based system, DETER, went into operation in 2004 (...)

> “DETER completely changed the way rangers went about enforcement work,” said Rajão. Rather than doing random patrols and checking for permits, rangers would send squads of enforcement officers — with satellite images in hand — to investigate areas of recent, suspicious activity. That made it much easier to remove or apprehend equipment. The word spread among deforesters. The existence of DETER meant that environmental authorities would likely notice if large tracts of land were cleared, and fines and agents would follow soon enough.

Re:IKEA buys 11,000 acres of U.S. forest to keep it from bei... by kaveh_h on Wednesday January 27, 2021 @08:33AM (#25928018)
You don’t necessarily need to enforcement at the whole region but at the perimeter where heavy machinery and cargo need to pass to reach customers. But since this comes with a big cost still UN should help out with enforcing such laws.
Re:IKEA buys 11,000 acres of U.S. forest to keep it from bei... by jcims on Wednesday January 27, 2021 @07:21AM (#25927330)
Pretty sure most would support repurposing Tomahawk missiles and MQ-9 Reapers for the protection of the Amazon.
Re:IKEA buys 11,000 acres of U.S. forest to keep it from bei... by glenneroo on Wednesday January 27, 2021 @07:52AM (#25927598)
I'm not sure that firing missiles into forests is the most intelligent use of resources...
Re:IKEA buys 11,000 acres of U.S. forest to keep it from bei... by detritus on Wednesday January 27, 2021 @08:00AM (#25927660)
Why not? You'd likely not need IraqWarII levels of commitment - just a few enthusiastically-delivered missives at 1100kph to get the message across. A few loitering drones and a few dozen more missiles might actually be a highly efficient use of resources. I'm not sure where 'intelligence' comes into play here, beyond condescension of an idea you evidently disagree with.
Re:IKEA buys 11,000 acres of U.S. forest to keep it from bei... by glenneroo on Wednesday January 27, 2021 @08:23AM (#25927903)
Apologies I didn't mean to be derogatory. I was just a little bit surprised at the bravado-military mentality that surfaced on a tech forum. To clarify, there are so many issues here I don't even know where to begin, just some quickies off the top of my head:

- the most obvious was mentioned already: forest fires, when missiles explode in a forest you are trying to protect, things tend to burn and fire tends to spread i.e. there might be little forest left to save after you're doing killing everyone who has bad intentions.

- where do you even set these up that they arrive on time to actually hit moving targets?

- how do you ensure you don't kill innocents?

- how do you even _find_ nefarious actors, when forest canopy makes it very hard to find anything, not to mention the Amazon forest is mind-numbingly huge.

- AFAIK the military generally has an inventory of weapons they have to keep stockpiled, so the tax-payer will pay for extremely expensive weapons to be used and built again (great if you want to support military-industrial complex).

As stated elsewhere, the issue is deeper and not addressable by blowing people up. The people doing this have nothing to lose because they have little or no opportunities for making money, so they take any job they can find. Do you believe we should just murder people who make questionable decisions based on their survival? You and I are sitting comfortably behind a computer having this discussion and I would venture that neither are us are qualified to talk about what it's like to be that close to starving.

Re:IKEA buys 11,000 acres of U.S. forest to keep it from bei... by jcims on Wednesday January 27, 2021 @09:12AM (#25928451)
It was mostly tongue in cheek but it would be interesting to see how the public reacts to such a declaration. If actually implemented I am fairly confident that countermeasures could be taken to avoid casualties and collateral damage, but historically those things get pretty slippery over time.
Re:IKEA buys 11,000 acres of U.S. forest to keep it from bei... by glenneroo on Wednesday January 27, 2021 @09:19AM (#25928525)
I suspect public reaction would depend on how media decides to spin it:

- poor starving people just trying to feed their families and in order to survive, will take any job and are being exploited to this end by <cartels/greedy corporations/etc>

or

- dirty scumbags killing innocent animals and cutting down swathes of protected forest just to make a quick buck

or any other narrative that sells clicks, not to say all media is corrupt/greedy, but it sure seems like most public reactions are based on media narratives.

Re:IKEA buys 11,000 acres of U.S. forest to keep it from bei... by detritus on Wednesday January 27, 2021 @09:48AM (#25928865)
Yeah, my apologies - I too was being slightly tongue in cheek.

That said, if you entirely removed morality from the equation, I suspect it would actually be an efficient use of resources, to 'surgically' target varying levels of unwanted enterprise to make a somewhat dissuasive point.

Re:IKEA buys 11,000 acres of U.S. forest to keep it from bei... by smileybarry on Wednesday January 27, 2021 @08:05AM (#25927704)
Well, causing a forest fire with a missile is one thing we should avoid.
Re:IKEA buys 11,000 acres of U.S. forest to keep it from bei... by detritus on Wednesday January 27, 2021 @08:10AM (#25927764)
Why then, just use kinetic/fragmentary projectiles - easy peasy!
Re:IKEA buys 11,000 acres of U.S. forest to keep it from bei... by jcims on Wednesday January 27, 2021 @08:11AM (#25927777)
You just time the operation to minimize risk of wildfires, which is already pretty low in a rainforest.

The only challenge I see is that the folks running the saws and the skidders aren't the ones profiting from the operation. So maybe you take some extra precautions to avoid killing the crew, but destroying the equipment seems like a perfectly acceptable use of resources.

Re:IKEA buys 11,000 acres of U.S. forest to keep it from bei... by DoingIsLearning on Wednesday January 27, 2021 @08:23AM (#25927908)
> You just time the operation to minimize risk of wildfires, which is already pretty low in a rainforest.

You seem misguided, rainforest is not equivalent to high humidity or rain all year round, you absolutely have wildfires and it is not a 'pretty low' risk. [0]

Also most of these operations are lead by organized crime and explore poor people in their day-to-day operations. Killing desperate and poor people that work on these illegal operations seems like a very disproportionate colateral for anyone that cares about upholding rule of Law, or you know just general ethics.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_Amazon_rainforest_wildfir...