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Re:New Intel CEO rehiring retired CPU architects by giantg2 on Thursday January 21, 2021 @02:28PM (#25863014)
I just have trouble wrapping my head around how someone can be that valuable. I'll never even hit $75/hr (excluding inflation).
Re:New Intel CEO rehiring retired CPU architects by munk-a on Thursday January 21, 2021 @03:28PM (#25863780)
Their labour can absolutely be that valuable due to how many customers you are effecting with a single hour of work - it's sort of the same principle as athletic stars - paying outrageous salaries to athletes is probably the least bad way to do things (it's certainly better than the companies just pocketing lots of cash).

That said, I think this is only achievable because of how relatively young and greenfield software is - the industry hasn't existed for more than a eighty years in any real sense (and arguably didn't really begin until things moved from academic to commercial in the seventies or so) and thus a lot of software can add massive value to society while doing relatively simple things. I think in a few hundred years all the low hanging fruit will be gone and software development will be extremely different from these wild-west days but right now yea - the value you can produce for a business can absolutely justify pretty ridiculous salaries.

I think the important counter point for humility here is that those folks aren't particularly special, maybe a 700k architect is a literal genius at the peak of their career, but there are other folks out there that are just as creative and making 80k. Maybe we just need to think of the strange wage imbalance in development as being as fickle and arbitrary as celebrity - could that actor at the local playhouse have been the next Jennifer Lawrence if only they'd gotten cast for the role? Quite possibly, but luck wasn't on their side and passed them over.

I'd say that people that command such high salaries are certainly worth it (in the cases I've seen at least) but they have also benefited from some fantastic luck in their career progression - they could've been someone else and be earning far less for the same set of skills.

Re:New Intel CEO rehiring retired CPU architects by Swizec on Thursday January 21, 2021 @05:20PM (#25865245)
It’s not about skills, it’s about the value those skills provide.

If you write a webapp to solve a $5000/day problem, that’s worth $X. If your company sells that to 10 companies, your work is worth 10X. But if it’s sold to 10000, wow.

Think of your work in terms of value provided to the buyer, not in terms of cost to yourself. Thus you unlock career potential

Re:New Intel CEO rehiring retired CPU architects by lmilcin on Thursday January 21, 2021 @05:49PM (#25865651)
It is a little bit more complicated than that.

If the webapp can solve $5000/day problem but there is literally millions of people that can do this, you are certainly not getting a share of that. Somebody else is maybe going to be rewarded for spotting an opportunity but the most you get is a "market rate".

The only way you can get paid proportionally is if you are literally the only one that can solve the problem and you know it and they know you know it.

Re:New Intel CEO rehiring retired CPU architects by Swizec on Thursday January 21, 2021 @06:14PM (#25865948)
Yes but that’s for the company to argue. Why would you help them lower your compensation?

Your goal is to maximize the value delivered. Their goal is to minimize how much of the value you capture.

You’ll find balance somewhere in the middle.

And ultimately there’s only so much a company will pay if they can’t extract value out of your work. Regardless of how good you are.

Re:New Intel CEO rehiring retired CPU architects by munk-a on Thursday January 21, 2021 @06:35PM (#25866197)
I think this is where society comes into play - Ideally I'd like to see the company expend a large amount of that value into wages with only a proportion of that going to developers and the rest being eaten off as taxes that can be put toward social programs to help the less well off.
Re:New Intel CEO rehiring retired CPU architects by Swizec on Thursday January 21, 2021 @06:53PM (#25866374)
We are in agreement. But if companies pay just market salary with no regard to value created, then they are not expending a large amount of value on wages :)
Re:New Intel CEO rehiring retired CPU architects by munk-a on Thursday January 21, 2021 @05:47PM (#25865632)
I absolutely agree and that's where the price differential is coming in, but it causes some perverse effects to the wage market. Is the work of the person solving that 5k/day problem that's then sold to ten clients worth ten times as much as the work of the person who's work is only sold to one client?

I think it's important to recognize the semi-arbitrary source of where this value is coming from and understand that while employees impacting a lot of customers are indeed creating a lot of value the work they are doing isn't significantly different from the work made by folks with more modest salaries.

Basically, at the core, I think there's a significant ethical question here and I would highlight the relative infancy of the industry. It's likely that in a few hundred years all this incredible value creation will be highly commoditized and that innovative development will be relegated to academic pursuits that companies only adopt and bring to market after a lot of investigation and research.

Uh hrm - as another parallel you might compare this to speed running. Right now we can do relatively simple things to dramatically create value (time saved off the run) but as time goes on and the run gets more "perfected" then the ability to shave time off the run (or create value for the business) will require a lot more investment of effort. I'm not certain if this will happen since everything in how development works points to this being a really hard state of the industry to accomplish - but looking at economic trends it feels inevitable that eventually it will be more profitable to, for instance, produce a cheaper better whatsapp then being the first market entrent into the coveted Deciduous Tree Vlog Platform market.

Re:New Intel CEO rehiring retired CPU architects by ctdonath on Thursday January 21, 2021 @08:41PM (#25867172)
Question then becomes: can YOU sell that work to 10,000? and how many can make what is sold?

I worked at a startup, became amazed at the sales crew’s ability to find buyers. I could make the app (and Co. could find few willing & capable to), but in no way could find anyone to fork over that much for it.

Re:New Intel CEO rehiring retired CPU architects by Swizec on Thursday January 21, 2021 @09:49PM (#25867724)
Yes. Point is the company with a good sales force gets more value out of your work and can pay you more. Not 1000 times more, but 5x sounds possible.

Google for example makes about 7-figures per employee. That’s a loooot of room to negotiate.

Re:New Intel CEO rehiring retired CPU architects by giantg2 on Thursday January 21, 2021 @08:00PM (#25866907)
The problem I have with that is - where is the team? It probably not a single person writing that app. It's likely a whole team of people.

In non-tech companies, IT is seen as a cost. Half the time your contribution is just saving the company from hiring x number of people to do the work manually.

Re:New Intel CEO rehiring retired CPU architects by Swizec on Thursday January 21, 2021 @08:13PM (#25866990)
You can start by taking value provided and dividing by number of people involved. I can almost promise the number you get is higher than people’s existing salary. Even after accounting for overhead.
Re:New Intel CEO rehiring retired CPU architects by giantg2 on Thursday January 21, 2021 @09:35PM (#25867600)
That's logical for any profitable company. The question is whether or not the amount is reasonable.
Re:New Intel CEO rehiring retired CPU architects by throwaway0a5e on Thursday January 21, 2021 @02:40PM (#25863173)
It's not unheard of to give people who were party to the creation of some critical thing the company does pay that simply can't be matched elsewhere in order to make them stick around. Usually you pair it with a fancy title like "global architect" or some other mumbo jumbo like that. Pretty much any time you hear about someone making 500k+ without being personally responsible for the success or failure of a heck of a lot of stuff it's a role like that.

Think of it as a $200k salary with $500k of "just to ensure you won't find a better offer elsewhere" on top.

These aren't the kind of roles you can work your way into. You have to be in the right place at the right time and be there for a long time.

Re:New Intel CEO rehiring retired CPU architects by necubi on Thursday January 21, 2021 @09:43PM (#25867673)
That's not true at all. Tons of people in Bay Area/NYC/Seattle are making $500k+ just for being relatively good at their jobs at a company that values software engineers. That's a typical Staff+ comp at a FAANG or similar company. You don't have to be some mythical engineering genius or be in the right place at the right time (to make it to $1MM+ probably does though).
Re:New Intel CEO rehiring retired CPU architects by unclekev on Friday January 22, 2021 @04:02AM (#25869793)
> These aren't the kind of roles you can work your way into. You have to be in the right place at the right time and be there for a long time

Sorry for grammar. On mobile but wanted to quickly contribute.

I was incredibly lucky in my last role. Something I don't think I'll ever be able to match again.

When I joined the company as a sysadmin there were 30 staff, and they really liked the work I did and eventually they put me on this innovation incentive scheme that basically said "If you keep delivering innovative solutions and driving the technology direction in the way that you are, we will pay you a bonus of 1.5% of the profit made from e-commerce sales every 4"

At the time sales profit from e-commerce channels was about 250k for each period, so a very nice $3500~ bonus every 4 months.

When I left the company ~15 years later:

- 5000+ staff

- Had moved into a role managing a large team of sysadmins and was responsible for the technical innovation strategy/direction of the business overall.

- Same CEO and and my original "IT manager" was now the CTO who I still reported into.

- They kept me on the same bonus scheme for my whole time at the company.

- By the time I left online sales profit for each 4 month period was $50,000,000.

Right place, right time, right people.

:-)

I gave up a lot for that job and worked damn hard though. I let it consume me and ended up very unhealthy.

Re:New Intel CEO rehiring retired CPU architects by avereveard on Thursday January 21, 2021 @05:47PM (#25865627)
A solution expert usually brings a baggage of knowledge of previously working solutions in the problem space, knowledge that has been acquired over many months of hard work

Short gigs where you being in a solution, point a team/company on the right direction and then jump off compensate for the accrued knowledge transfer more than for the hour worked

Think of it like a top end athlete, they aren't paid for the few hours of play, but for the years of training that keep them competitive

Re:New Intel CEO rehiring retired CPU architects by leesalminen on Thursday January 21, 2021 @02:32PM (#25863075)
Here in Boulder $100/hr is the cheapest you can find for a freelance developer worth their salt.
Re:New Intel CEO rehiring retired CPU architects by benibela on Thursday January 21, 2021 @06:15PM (#25865954)
As open-source developer, I make $0/hr :/
Re:New Intel CEO rehiring retired CPU architects by ognarb on Thursday January 21, 2021 @09:11PM (#25867394)
And I was considering myself unlucky with $1/week I make.
Re:New Intel CEO rehiring retired CPU architects by dboreham on Friday January 22, 2021 @09:39AM (#25871978)
Aka "hobby".
Re:New Intel CEO rehiring retired CPU architects by giantg2 on Thursday January 21, 2021 @03:08PM (#25863548)
I'm just worthless
Re:New Intel CEO rehiring retired CPU architects by munk-a on Thursday January 21, 2021 @03:29PM (#25863805)
You are not. You're just poorly compensated and that doesn't say a damn about your personal worth.
Re:New Intel CEO rehiring retired CPU architects by giantg2 on Thursday January 21, 2021 @03:33PM (#25863852)
Eh, everything in life is about money, so I think it does.
Re:New Intel CEO rehiring retired CPU architects by munk-a on Thursday January 21, 2021 @03:37PM (#25863915)
Well, honestly, if that's your opinion then change your circumstances - work on your resume and get a job with higher compensation, they certainly exist and the requirements for them and expectations on them are far lower than you think... And, most importantly, the price for failure is negligible. If you're a wiz with databases in your current position and are considering moving to a fancy silicon valley job with high compensation the worst that can happen is you'll fail your probationary period and still make a fair amount of money.
Re:New Intel CEO rehiring retired CPU architects by giantg2 on Thursday January 21, 2021 @04:05PM (#25864225)
There really aren't many FileNet or Neoxam options out there. My wife refuses to relocate, so I'm stuck where I am.
Re:New Intel CEO rehiring retired CPU architects by munk-a on Thursday January 21, 2021 @04:17PM (#25864366)
Oh but right now we've got a pandemic on - assuming everybody is onboard with the risk of changing jobs a lot of folks are hiring remote employees.
Re:New Intel CEO rehiring retired CPU architects by giantg2 on Thursday January 21, 2021 @08:13PM (#25866986)
I still don't see many. There's a contract Filenet job with a contract rate of $60/hr. I don't think it's worth it to trade a fulltime job for that. Not to mention, I'm starting to work with AWS now (sort of, they switch me all the time) so that would be the better longterm option.
Re:New Intel CEO rehiring retired CPU architects by leesalminen on Thursday January 21, 2021 @04:35PM (#25864610)
I find that to be highly unlikely seeing that you’ve been a part of the HN community for under 2 years and have nearly the same karma as me after 7. You clearly have something interesting to say! My email is in my profile. Hit me up to chat if you’d like :). Maybe I can help you somehow.
Re:New Intel CEO rehiring retired CPU architects by lnenad on Thursday January 21, 2021 @05:12PM (#25865140)
That's very kind of you.
Re:New Intel CEO rehiring retired CPU architects by cosmodisk on Thursday January 21, 2021 @05:04PM (#25865047)
I'm nowhere near $75/h. A couple of years ago I built a solution for the company I work for that heavily contributed getting hundreds of thousands in revenue( and continues to do so). All it took was a few weeks. Didn't even get a bonus or something and this is a tiny company. Right work can be worth millions,so even $2000/h may not look high enough.
Re:New Intel CEO rehiring retired CPU architects by giantg2 on Thursday January 21, 2021 @08:15PM (#25867006)
Yeah, but like your example, the company keeps the money.
Re:New Intel CEO rehiring retired CPU architects by cccc4all on Thursday January 21, 2021 @02:56PM (#25863383)
For 1099 contract work, $200/Hour is the sweet spot for in demand fields, javascript, React, FE, etc.
Re:New Intel CEO rehiring retired CPU architects by rubin55 on Friday January 22, 2021 @10:44AM (#25872588)
What’s 1099?
Re:New Intel CEO rehiring retired CPU architects by usmannk on Thursday January 21, 2021 @02:31PM (#25863065)
New grads in SFBA make well north of $75/hr. Sometimes it's all about geo.
Re:New Intel CEO rehiring retired CPU architects by cascom on Thursday January 21, 2021 @06:34PM (#25866187)
Your comparing apples and oranges - when you take a salary you take a lower hourly wage to eliminate volume risk, works in the spot market get compensated for taking the volume risk