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Re:Radio users reminded not to use radios in crimes by Lammy on Tuesday January 19, 2021 @03:27PM (#25838437)
> These people are idiots.

It makes me uneasy to see how much commentary on recent events seems to focus on insulting these people instead of hearing how society has failed them and why they're upset even if we tend to disagree with their suggested fixes. I think their presence in DC and that "colorful" person they elected are all symptoms of this behavior.

Re:Radio users reminded not to use radios in crimes by poulsbohemian on Tuesday January 19, 2021 @04:00PM (#25838825)
> focus on insulting these people instead of hearing how society has failed them

Look, I'm just a guy, with no fancy credentials or research to back this up, but the more I read, the more I try to understand this crowd, the more I talk with other people about this crowd, the more I believe these people are making choices. That is to say, there are plenty of educated and monied people running amok here. To believe that this is a crowd of impoverished, under/un-employed people with limited economic means that society has failed is in fact allowing them to behave recklessly and grow their audience. Nope. A lot of these folks know what they are doing or are allowing themselves to give in to their worst selves. That's not being failed, that's making choices.

Re:Radio users reminded not to use radios in crimes by dane-pgp on Tuesday January 19, 2021 @11:40PM (#25842645)
> But she also said the GOP played a role, adding that “if we are the party of personal responsibility, we need to take personal responsibility.”

https://www.politico.com/news/2021/01/07/nikki-haley-critici...

Re:Radio users reminded not to use radios in crimes by paxys on Tuesday January 19, 2021 @06:49PM (#25840614)
The people at the Capitol riot/insurrection were all relatively well off. This "economic anxiety" argument is tired and completely fake.
Re:Radio users reminded not to use radios in crimes by dragonwriter on Tuesday January 19, 2021 @06:53PM (#25840658)
> The people at the Capitol riot/insurrection were all relatively well off.

“All” probably overstates the case, but it certainly seems that they were disproportionately so. Certainly, those that have been arrested or identified from video (sets that seem to converge over time) seem to be largely employed (prior to the attack, less so after) and not poor.

Re:Radio users reminded not to use radios in crimes by Lammy on Tuesday January 19, 2021 @09:09PM (#25841748)
TIL rich people can afford to travel more than poor people :)
Re:Radio users reminded not to use radios in crimes by paxys on Tuesday January 19, 2021 @09:23PM (#25841848)
At least one of them took a private jet to DC
Re:Radio users reminded not to use radios in crimes by BurningFrog on Tuesday January 19, 2021 @09:33PM (#25841919)
This is how we humans think of our outgroup.

While your ingroup is unique individuals with good and bad traits, your outgroup is an undifferentiated "them" that is selfish, untrustworthy, stupid, the reason for all these problems we're having, and we really may have to do something about them one of these days!

Re:Radio users reminded not to use radios in crimes by dane-pgp on Tuesday January 19, 2021 @11:49PM (#25842684)
You're right to remind us about the cognitive biases relating to in-groups and out-groups[1], but let's remember that in the context of this thread, the original comment about "idiots" was:

"These people are idiots. Bringing their cellphones, recording video of themselves committing felonies and then posting them online."

It doesn't seem that the commenter was branding every voter for the opposing candidate an idiot, just the specific group of people who shared evidence of themselves committing crimes.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultimate_attribution_error

Re:Radio users reminded not to use radios in crimes by Lammy on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @12:09AM (#25842775)
It's a pretty common sentiment I've seen lately even here on HN, for example all of the threads about how amateurish Parler is/was (LOL did you know they're so stupid they didn't know to strip image metadata?), like we told them to go make their own website but then mock them while they learn how to do it. I'm just sick of being mean!
Re:Radio users reminded not to use radios in crimes by kelnos on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @03:05AM (#25843809)
I think there's a bit of a chasm between:

"I'm a newbie web developer and I've never heard of EXIF", and

"It didn't occur to me that I shouldn't have recorded video of myself committing crimes and then posted it on the internet."

> I'm just sick of being mean!

Fair point. And regardless, "these people are idiots" doesn't really help us make sense of what happened, or figure out how to stop people from even wanting to do things like this in the future.

Re:Radio users reminded not to use radios in crimes by BurningFrog on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @10:18AM (#25847397)
Well, technically, I only mentioned that that is how our "tribal urges" work.

I think it's an important thing to be aware of, ideally so you can recognize these thought patterns in yourself and others.

But of course I also implied that OP was doing this. A fairer description would note that most capitol invaders did not publish themselves committing felonies. Taking the dumbest/worst behaved members of the outgroup as typical is textbook.

And from inside the other group, the tribal brain thinks those crimes were committed by antifa provocateurs.

Re:Radio users reminded not to use radios in crimes by mikem170 on Tuesday January 19, 2021 @09:45PM (#25842018)
I agree! I wonder the same thing.

So far I assume (not in order): A) the "American dream" and doing better economically than your parents ain't all it used to be, B) non-hispanic whites are loosing their majority status, C) mass media and the internet are more disrupting than the printing press was, D) greed, corruption, and other political inefficiencies, and E) the scale and pace of change are unprecedented.

Everyone agrees that lots of stuff is broke. Politicians don't seem to be helping. We (the people) don't agree on next steps. Some want to turn back the clock. Others want to try something new. Too many want to impose their view on others who disagree.

I assume we'll figure it out eventually. Some cultures/societies will have it easier than others.

Re:Radio users reminded not to use radios in crimes by minikites on Tuesday January 19, 2021 @10:23PM (#25842247)
>insulting these people instead of hearing how society has failed them

It's always "the left" that has to compromise and do the hard work of understanding and placating "the right". The right wing is immune to consequences and allergic to self-reflection. I'll stop calling them idiots when they grow up, actually take responsibility like adults do, and act accordingly.

Re:Radio users reminded not to use radios in crimes by mhh__ on Tuesday January 19, 2021 @06:35PM (#25840480)
No amount of "economic anxiety" justifies an explicitly undemocratic coup attempt where people were running around looking to scalp democratically elected leaders.

There are real ills in society, but - ignoring that republican voters are significantly uninformed about things like the party's support for healthcare, e.g. Efforts to scrap Obamacare largely hurt poor Trump voters - that doesn't excuse them from the fact that they've swallowed the Trump Koolaid and taken part in a coup.

And besides, if you want to talk about society failing them - were there any black people in the Capitol?

Re:Radio users reminded not to use radios in crimes by Lammy on Tuesday January 19, 2021 @07:26PM (#25840984)
Why are you and another reply quoting "economic anxiety" when that was never a claim I made? I'm talking about the total contempt you and others seem to have when talking about these people. If you think they are misinformed and have been misled, cool, let's reach out and try to help get them back on the golden path, but all I see is insult-slinging and you're still doing it.
Re:Radio users reminded not to use radios in crimes by mhh__ on Tuesday January 19, 2021 @07:33PM (#25841056)
They're supposed to be scare quotes rather than a direction quotation.

Economic Anxiety is often bandied around by people trying to justify often beyond-fascist behaviour as if morality is solely determined by money.

Re:Radio users reminded not to use radios in crimes by treeman79 on Tuesday January 19, 2021 @06:49PM (#25840616)
But burning cities all summer is acceptable?

Or taking over downtown city blocks for months...

Re:Radio users reminded not to use radios in crimes by mhh__ on Tuesday January 19, 2021 @06:53PM (#25840653)
Nice strawman... I don't think either of those things were acceptable either.

Quite frankly lumping in all of the protests over the summer, for example the one The Donald had tear gassed, with the looting that largely took place after dark is really saying the quiet part out loud.

If they'd protested outside the Capitol not in it, I'd be more sympathetic, even if they were campaigning for the end of American Democracy.

Re:Radio users reminded not to use radios in crimes by treeman79 on Tuesday January 19, 2021 @07:02PM (#25840759)
No straw man. A double standard.
Re:Radio users reminded not to use radios in crimes by jachee on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @02:59AM (#25843759)
Double standard?

How many white men were strangled to death on camera, pleading "I can't breathe!"?[0]

How many white women were murdered in their bedrooms after their apartment was stormed on a dubious-at-best, no-knock warrant? [1]

Now, how many violent, white insurrectionists are getting slap-on-the-wrist misdemeanors for breaching our nation's sanctum sanctorum? [2][3][4]

Yeah, there's a double standard. It's white supremacy.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Floyd

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Breonna_Taylor

[2] https://www.syracuse.com/crime/2021/01/syracuse-man-arrested...

[3] https://www.khou.com/article/news/local/jenny-cudd-fbi-arres...

[4] https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/most-of-the-arrests-...

Re:Radio users reminded not to use radios in crimes by kelnos on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @03:09AM (#25843824)
How's this for a double standard: a group of mostly-white "protestors" can storm the US federal government with minimal opposition from law enforcement, resulting in essentially one death. Meanwhile, black men and women live with an entirely reasonable fear that any interaction with law enforcement, no matter how benign the circumstances might be, could easily end in their death.
Re:Radio users reminded not to use radios in crimes by mhh__ on Tuesday January 19, 2021 @07:08PM (#25840811)
Which I didn't mention. You raised I point that I didn't comment on even tangentially and argued against that instead.
Re:Radio users reminded not to use radios in crimes by TheOtherHobbes on Tuesday January 19, 2021 @07:56PM (#25841219)
Those things happened happened for a reason - specifically yet another public murder by the police which was posted online as a video for the delight of racists everywhere.

There is no justification for the fact that imprisonment and murder of black people by the police happens, and is encouraged, to a completely disproportionate extent in the US.

It's also well understood that imprisonment in the US is run on a for-profit basis not dissimilar to slavery, and some judges have gone to prison for corrupt sentencing.

These police actions are immoral, unjust, and just plain nasty, and the best way to stop having your cities set on fire is to stop them happening.

This shouldn't be hard to understand, but in a country which has areas which are only just getting over Jim Crow and lynchings the connection between institutionally abusing some people and having them fight back seems to be too much of a reach for some of the population.

So these riots occur predictably after every avoidable trigger event. And they will continue to happen until that lesson is learned.

This is completely different to an entitled middle income mob of COS-playing couch heroes storming the political centre of the US and making credible threats against elected representatives inside it - after a speech by the president which inflamed the mob, and after a campaign of lies by the president which threatened the foundation of electoral integrity.

All very possibly at the behest of a hostile foreign power.

That's simple textbook domestic terrorism. It has no excuse or justification, and it's naive and misleading to suggest the two are somehow equivalent.

Re:Radio users reminded not to use radios in crimes by vorpalhex on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @01:14AM (#25843090)
> These police actions are immoral, unjust, and just plain nasty, and the best way to stop having your cities set on fire is to stop them happening.

That is, by definition, actual terrorism. Attacking a civilian population to achieve a political goal. It doesn't matter how awesome or not your goal is.

You're going to find the same issue with that approach that most violent people do - people resist and fight back. Several rioters have already found out that lesson.

> This is completely different to an entitled middle...

No, not really. Insurrectionists will also discover their nonsense will not be tolerated.

> it's naive and misleading to suggest the two are somehow equivalent.

Stop using violence to achieve political ends. See? Easy.