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Re:Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cl... by Aerroon on Monday January 18, 2021 @05:22PM (#25827409)
Free expression is chaotic. It always has been and it always will be. It will always have lies and misinformation, some people will even believe the lies. But this is also the beauty of free expression - it prevents anyone from using it to enact total control. Speech that is free will always seed doubt against ideas, regardless whether those ideas are true or false. It's an avenue that allows anything to be questioned.

Propaganda and misinformation have been around for a long time. Mark Antony and Octavius engaged in a war of misinformation.[0] People in those times had far fewer avenues of information. If somebody sold them a false story, then people were probably more likely to believe them. We're still here though.

I think what's been happening over the recent years is that people have finally started waking up from the End of History. The world is as chaotic as always.

[0] https://www.ft.com/content/aaf2bb08-dca2-11e6-86ac-f253db779...

Re:Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cl... by cortesoft on Monday January 18, 2021 @06:15PM (#25827915)
> But this is also the beauty of free expression - it prevents anyone from using it to enact total control.

This is the really tricky part, though... absolute free expression only prevents people from enacting total control if it persists; however, free speech is not something that can’t be undone.

This is a form of the paradox of tolerance. If people use their absolute free speech to push lies and propaganda that allows them to gain enough control to then suppress future free speech and maintain their own power, we are no longer protected by free speech.

Even if you believe truth always eventually wins out if free speech is allowed, that doesn’t mean that we won’t hit a point along that path where free speech is restricted, and our meandering path towards truth suddenly stops.

Now, I don’t think restricting free speech is the answer, but we can’t pretend that it is impossible for people to use their power of free speech to prevent free speech in the future.

Re:Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cl... by babesh on Monday January 18, 2021 @07:00PM (#25828267)
That is why you need an educated populace. By educated, we mean one that can think critically and independently rather than a college credential.
Re:Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cl... by inglor_cz on Tuesday January 19, 2021 @04:42AM (#25831635)
Germany in the early 1930s was one of the best, most rigorously educated nations in the world.

It was also crushed by weight of enormous economic crisis.

Smart people pushed to the wall will be more dangerous than stupid(ish) people who have something to lose.

Re:Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cl... by DataWorker on Tuesday January 19, 2021 @10:44AM (#25834528)
It’s almost as if education is a proxy for being a social conformist. But people still think school cures groupthink. It does the opposite by definition.
Re:Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cl... by rayiner on Monday January 18, 2021 @07:07PM (#25828333)
We’ve got one of the most educated populations in the world. Europe is only recently catching up to is in e.g. the percentage of people with college degrees.
Re:Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cl... by sjwright on Monday January 18, 2021 @09:11PM (#25829180)
College degrees are not a relevant metric. What percentage of the population are being taught fundamental critical thinking skills? How many are taught how to evaluate the quality of data and the quality of sources? How many people have a good grounding of statistics? Or civics? Or logical fallacies? How many people can describe the scientific method?

I don't have many vivid memories of my primary school education but one of them was being taught how to be suspicious of claims made in advertisements. That one class stuck with me for a long time. (This was in Melbourne, Australia sometime around 1988.)

Re:Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cl... by JamesBarney on Monday January 18, 2021 @10:42PM (#25829752)
Very few people are being taught this anywhere. Even M.D.s (some of the most intelligent and educated among us) have so little statistical knowledge they can barely reason about novel type 1 versus type 2 errors.
Re:Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cl... by kelnos on Tuesday January 19, 2021 @04:39PM (#25839250)
I wouldn't put MDs on such a high pedestal. They're people who specialize, just like people in many other professions, and having little knowledge of statistics beyond an (oft-forgotten) undergraduate-level course wouldn't surprise me. It's a different story for doctors who go the research route rather than practicing medicine, of course.
Re:Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cl... by babesh on Tuesday January 19, 2021 @11:16PM (#25842519)
My classmates who went on to become medical doctors were no smarter and possibly less ethical. What they had was the family circumstances to delay gratification. Sometimes this was family wealth to support them for years, other times it was the family pooling their resources for one chosen member of the family, other times it was the family wealth to support them going to a lower tier medical school, and lastly it was family members who got them positions. I really hated the guy who cheated in honors English and went on to become a doctor.

Turning your descendants into doctors and lawyers is one of the traditional ways families use to preserve their wealth. It isn’t because these people were smarter.

Re:Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cl... by freebuju on Monday January 18, 2021 @11:21PM (#25829962)
> how to be suspicious of claims made in advertisements. That one class stuck with me for a long time. (This was in Melbourne, Australia sometime around 1988.)

FWIW, advertising and to a larger extent advocacy in 1988 and what is today are entirety different animals.

Though I do agree with your point. The number of college graduates does not equate to higher critical thinking of a nation's populace.

I did attend a journalism class almost a decade ago. Even though the powerful effects of mass media on people were likened to a magic bullet [0] It would be correct to assume that social media tech today has transcended this very capability and in more powerful ways than ever imaginable by its inventor.

[0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypodermic_needle_model

Re:Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cl... by sjwright on Tuesday January 19, 2021 @02:59AM (#25830996)
> FWIW, advertising and to a larger extent advocacy in 1988 and what is today are entirety different animals.

There certainly are more forms and techniques of advertising, but if you teach the fundamentals sufficiently well, the critical thinking skill set can adapt as advertising adapts.

An important fundamental is to recognise that you have a desire for a product or service and to know to be conscious of the chain of events that have led to that desire.

Re:Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cl... by GoblinSlayer on Tuesday January 19, 2021 @04:50AM (#25831687)
You mean tracking? Advertisements themselves didn't change. And you don't need any complex countermeasure, just knowing that the information not trustworthy is enough for all practical purposes and for all information sources. People who fall for lies have only one wrong assumption: that the information they receive is trustworthy, once that one is out, it stops working for good.
Re:Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cl... by artificialLimbs on Monday January 18, 2021 @11:37PM (#25830046)
I think integrity might be what you're aiming toward. When people are taught to live integrous lives and manage to do so, they are more able to see a lack of integrity when it comes.
Re:Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cl... by cortesoft on Tuesday January 19, 2021 @04:40PM (#25839258)
So if level of schooling achieved is not a good metric for education, what is?

Even if everyone experiences the same schooling, everyone isn’t going to be equally educated.

Re:Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cl... by rualca on Tuesday January 19, 2021 @01:57AM (#25830748)
> We’ve got one of the most educated populations in the world.

Keeping children in school for 12 years doesn't mean they are educated.

Keep in mind that between 7-9% of school-age children in the US are homeschooled.

https://www.nheri.org/research-facts-on-homeschooling/

Re:Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cl... by jjaammee on Tuesday January 19, 2021 @02:09AM (#25830790)
Had every Athenian citizen been a Socrates, every Athenian assembly would still have been a mob.

James Madison, The Federalist Papers

Re:Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cl... by acdha on Tuesday January 19, 2021 @08:15AM (#25833121)
Education isn’t a panacea. Think about how there’s the stereotype of pro-Confederates as ignorant hillbillies but then look at who reacts whenever someone suggests not having an inaccurate statute in a public place or naming a U.S. military base after someone who fought against the U.S. military. You’ll find people with Ph.Ds arguing to protect that, not because they’re incapable of learning but because they were deliberately educated with incorrect information and, since the results haven’t harmed them personally, will use their critical thinking and analytic skills to mount as strong a defense as they can. Thinking “critically and independently” is also how people who believe in creationism, are anti-vaccination, climate change deniers, opposed to public health practices during the pandemic, etc. explain their beliefs, too, often sincerely.

I’m not sure how to break that cycle. It seems to require some kind of forcing function which pushes the topic into verifiable facts and logic but that’s hard to against opposition and only works when things are fairly clear-cut (e.g. you can show Robert E. Lee was a bad person from historical records but it’s not easy to objectively prove the causes of poverty or crime rates).

Re:Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cl... by Aerroon on Tuesday January 19, 2021 @12:36PM (#25836059)
This is why the value of free speech needs to be protected. If enough people holds this value then it becomes difficult for anyone to change it.
Re:Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cl... by anonymousDan on Monday January 18, 2021 @06:35PM (#25828060)
Right, lies and propaganda only have to win once.
Re:Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cl... by heimatau on Monday January 18, 2021 @06:46PM (#25828152)
> only have to win once.

I disagree. If you notice with American politics both sides believe in strong dogmas. There is no middle ground.

They both have made their beds and they will lay in it.

Corporate Dems (control the Democratic Party) and the MAGA (control the GOP) have their own ecochambers. MSNBC, CNN, etc indoctrinate the Dems. Talk radio for the GOP.

The two cults will continue to clash. I wonder if the people will wake up.

Re:Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cl... by nitrogen on Monday January 18, 2021 @09:19PM (#25829236)
I wonder if the people will wake up.

The "wake up" approach doesn't seem to be working, but we do need some way of reforming our society around the idea of the mighty middle that is not represented by the extremes.

Re:Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cl... by DataWorker on Tuesday January 19, 2021 @11:38AM (#25835203)
Or we need to stop using words like fascism, tyranny, racist just because someone disagrees with us. That shift to cooler more informative language is just as difficult for educated people. Even on HN, so many threads devolve into Godwin’s law. I will say that one exception is education about human cognition. Trying to reason without a strong grasp of our own psychology and good ways of framing epistemological problems is like writing software without regard to hardware. Useful to some extent but prone to unforseen gotchas.
Re:Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cl... by marvin on Tuesday January 19, 2021 @06:09AM (#25832239)
Or maybe a middle that's not dominated by dogma or ideologies. There's many pieces of truth located pretty far from the center of various political ideologies, but the ideologies taken as a whole also contain a stunning amount of falsehood and simplification.
Re:Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cl... by kelnos on Tuesday January 19, 2021 @04:43PM (#25839297)
I would hope we could have both. Honestly, I'm not a fan of the policy platforms of any politicians who have claimed to be in the middle.

Being left or right doesn't mean that you necessarily have to throw reason and critical thinking out the window. Being an extremist, sure; devotion to dogma is often a feature of extremism, but that's not the same thing.

Re:Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cl... by maximente on Monday January 18, 2021 @11:01PM (#25829860)
having two strong parties seems like an inevitable artifact of first past the post voting (lesser of two evils thinking, "wasted" votes, etc.), and unless "the people" can constitutionally get something like ranked choice voting done federally, i'm not sure what the way forward is. any thoughts?
Re:Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cl... by heimatau on Monday January 18, 2021 @11:07PM (#25829886)
> any thoughts?

I'm an independent. I like some of the ideas of the Right that they believe that States are governments to experiment with. I'd suggest FPTP and other solutions to just attempt to do this locally and in a State or two. It will get traction, if it's worth it to the governed population. That's my suggestion, start small.

Re:Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cl... by kelnos on Tuesday January 19, 2021 @04:49PM (#25839356)
> I like some of the ideas of the Right that they believe that States are governments to experiment with

That's mostly feels like just all talk, though. A concrete example: California would love to do some health care experiments, including going single-payer. However, the state can't do so without permission from the federal government to use Medicare funding in different ways (obviously there is no way a state could fund something like that itself without state-level tax increases that would never get past the electorate). GOP-controlled Congress would never go for that, in part because they don't want to be seen by their base as "supporting socialism", and also in part (I'm conjecturing here) that they're afraid that it'll work and they'll be proven wrong.

From the GOP's perspective it more seems like "states should experiment... as long as they're experiments we agree with".

Re:Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cl... by babesh on Monday January 18, 2021 @07:02PM (#25828291)
Nope. As long as there is potential for other powers to grow or counteract it, you have a chance to course correct. Isn’t that what a vote is good for?
Re:Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cl... by cortesoft on Monday January 18, 2021 @10:48PM (#25829783)
Sure, but being able to vote is not guaranteed, either. If the propaganda wins out, they can stop allowing votes.
Re:Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cl... by compiler-guy on Monday January 18, 2021 @07:31PM (#25828509)
A vote isn’t good for anything if violent extremists can overturn an election.
Re:Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cl... by giantg2 on Monday January 18, 2021 @07:12PM (#25828375)
I think it ends up being the pendulum swinging farther to the other side than really correcting whenever we see a switch.
Re:Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cl... by imgabe on Monday January 18, 2021 @06:47PM (#25828166)
> It will always have lies and misinformation,

The misconception is that there is a form of speech that doesn't have lies or misinformation. People seem to imagine that there is some perfect form of moderation that will only present us the unvarnished truth. That simply isn't the case. You're only limiting the lies to those that serve the interest of whoever controls the moderation.

Re:Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cl... by spaginal on Monday January 18, 2021 @07:03PM (#25828304)
Lack of free speech necessitates an over abundance of control, misinformation, lies, and overt propaganda in order to quell any free thought that would push people to ask questions openly. That is the distinct irony of people saying we must control free speech, thought, and information, in order to prevent misinformation from compelling people to violence or what have you. It doesn’t work that way, and it’s openly promoted on this website quite fervently.

The only speech that brings people back to the middle, away from the extremes, is free speech and open debate. That is it.

Re:Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cl... by robin21 on Tuesday January 19, 2021 @04:03AM (#25831372)
I think free speech is a very difficult pill to swallow when it's not convenient for your own agenda. As soon as one side makes an exception then the other side can, all the way to full censorship of each other's opposing sides.

This is fascinating to observe in political chat rooms and message boards where anyone submitting a dissenting opinion is called a spy or troll and will be banned until there are no dissenters left.

Re:Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cl... by spaginal on Tuesday January 19, 2021 @10:47AM (#25834561)
It is a difficult pill to swallow because convincing someone they are going down the wrong path where free speech reigns requires nuance, knowledge of subject, listening, empathy, and tact. All things people are too lazy to do now, especially politicians, teachers, media, and media gatekeepers, who are the worst offenders of this, and simply wish to drive eyeballs, create a monopoly for their crappy ideas, and rile up their bases. Simply banning something never actually makes it go away, especially ideas.

It’s easier to declare them as an enemy of the state, communists, nazi’s, right wing, left wing, formenting insurrection, compelling violence, or whatever other set of buzzwords that sound dangerous enough and catchy.

Then you feel morally justified in silencing them, although you really haven’t silenced them, now they simply go into the dark recesses of society and simmer for years or decades, sometimes a generation or two, until it spills out in actually violent and chaotic ways.

I just wish people would actually sit down and talk again in real life. I wish online forums would stop driving engagement with votes and likes, and would stop downvoting and silencing for actual opinion or thought and drove real healthy engagement that cut this sort of behavior off at the knees.

I feel like a dinosaur at this point watching the comet come in.

Re:Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cl... by robin21 on Friday January 22, 2021 @11:39AM (#25873185)
Yeh this feeling of watching a comet resonates. I have a theory that we arrived at this point because sadness, anxiety, and loneliness in the world has increased due to social media and people's reward systems being messed up. People will usually rage when there is something else in their life that is not going quite right. Anyway, just a theory. I love reading back stories of those who have ventured from the center to a further right/left position and why. Honest accounts including other things going on in their lives. Because these stories aggregated are the reason why things are the way they are.

So yes, more face to face, less social media / news addiction.

Re:Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cl... by dkobia on Tuesday January 19, 2021 @05:44AM (#25832044)
We're also waking up to the fact that free speech is an incredibly difficult ideal to uphold. Hate speech, fake speech, etc are testing the limits. Other ideals like religion are much easier to uphold in a mostly secular society until a new religion threatens the place of a dying incumbent. Really all these ideals are great when we're on the same page, until we aren't.
Re:Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cl... by rualca on Tuesday January 19, 2021 @01:55AM (#25830741)
> But this is also the beauty of free expression - it prevents anyone from using it to enact total control.

This ignores all the historical events where groups leveraging said chaotic nature of free speech succeeded in establishing totalitarian regimes which enacted total control over the entire population, including it's supporters.

Re:Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cl... by inglor_cz on Tuesday January 19, 2021 @04:46AM (#25831662)
Well, actually ... one of the best lessons from the interwar period is that political parties must be forbidden from keeping their paramilitary units.

Because at the moment of the coup, well-organized paramilitary units (SA or Czechoslovak People Militias or Italian Camicie Nere) were always the crucial factor in success, and not just a mob of random rabble aroused by someone's speech.

All the later hotspots on the European map (North Ireland, Basque Country, Corsica) broke this rule and the local irredentist parties had a "political wing" and a "militant wing".

Re:Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cl... by heimatau on Monday January 18, 2021 @06:43PM (#25828129)
> Free expression is chaotic.

The founding fathers(FF) knew this. The FF created a system of government that acts as a society consciousness. Allowing for passion (the House) but having frontal lobe mechanisms (the Senate guards against the mob mentality).

The recent insurrection happened specifically because of the laziness/apathy/intentional (take your pick, I'm certain one is true) of the Congress. It was their job to protect DC and with a rally on the same day nonetheless, yet the law enforcement was gravely lacking. Also the DC mayor and even the POTUS, yet none took the responsibility.

As for Parler, they acted like little children. Whining and not doing much. They attack a hornet's nest then cry when they get stung. They should've been prepared instead of telling Tucker Carlson's audience their entire system of weaknesses.

Peter Kolmisoppi, one of The Pirate Bay co-founders, criticized their behavior as well [1]. (Not being prepared, whining, etc)

Society is starkly divided between the rural and urban elites. There will always be bad eggs. BLM/Qanon are equally screwed up. But the kicker is two major things. We need better discourse and more civic engagement. No change will happen without our engagement (for either side).

Ultimately, I welcome the fourth turning.

[1] - https://twitter.com/brokep/status/1348224123592437760

Re:Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cl... by _underfl0w_ on Monday January 18, 2021 @07:51PM (#25828668)
> The founding fathers(FF)

Nitpick: why define a new acronym that you only use once? Just remove the acronym definition and change the single instance to the full word.

Also, comparing BLM to QAnon is an... odd choice.

Re:Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cl... by rualca on Tuesday January 19, 2021 @02:08AM (#25830787)
> BLM/Qanon are equally screwed up.

Can you please elaborate how a movement against police brutality and racism is in any way comparable with a group that supports a conspiracy theory regarding a cabal of satanic-worshiping cannibals?

Re:Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cl... by heimatau on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @01:49AM (#25843268)
> Can you please elaborate how a movement

American society tends to not like riots. 'Moral purity' doesn't justify physical wrath and destruction [1]. The collective society tends to benefit with using our Republic government as an instrument of recourse/change.

Using a small microcosm to judge any movement is a psyop by someone trying to reduce your critical thinking skills. Please figure out how to understand the grievances of 'the other side' because it's blinding you to a destructive discourse environment. Dare I say 80% of Americans would actually enjoy many 'other' people, if they were open and less hostile that mutes any chance to fixing mutually agreed upon problems.

[1] - I understand I'm opening myself to many historical counter arguments. But please understand that today isn't the 1850s. Nor the 1960s...etc.

Re:Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cl... by Bakary on Tuesday January 19, 2021 @11:27AM (#25835077)
The only people who still believed in the End of History in these past few years were the elites and the well-to-do knowledge workers that serve them
Re:Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cl... by rodgerd on Monday January 18, 2021 @09:34PM (#25829333)
> But this is also the beauty of free expression - it prevents anyone from using it to enact total control.

Yeah, right up until you're talked into electing a dictator.

It's just as well that's never happened!

Re:Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cl... by jimz on Tuesday January 19, 2021 @12:12AM (#25830218)
And now he's out. The system's not about preemptively stopping theoretical bad acts per se (although if it actually stops real incoming threats, great), but rather, about being able to evaluate and change course when human fallibility inevitably leads to bad policies, bad choices, and bad outcomes. It's a work in progress, particularly as to how we can properly disincentivize future attempts and hold those who actively attempted to overthrow the Constitutional state by force without resorting to Minority-Report style overbroad invasions of privacy, but at least we can do that. These things are such non-starters in China and Russia that the former more or less acquiesced to a corrupt state and the latter has an economy that was so thoroughly disposessed by the few from the people that its GDP is on par with New York City despite 60 times the population, and with no recourse. Change is never easy nor always correct, but at least that opportunity exists here. It doesn't in many places that purportedly have "order" over "liberty" as the central value, as they end up with neither.
Re:Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cl... by GoblinSlayer on Tuesday January 19, 2021 @05:41AM (#25832012)
You don't think USA achieved that by being the best ones? See for example history of relationships with Cuba, the same goes for pretty much everything, not only Cuba.
Re:Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cl... by redis_mlc on Tuesday January 19, 2021 @10:59AM (#25834712)
>> Yeah, right up until you're talked into electing a dictator.

> And now he's out.

Trump was never a dictator.

> bad policies, bad choices, and bad outcomes.

Got any examples?