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Re:National Rifle Association files for bankruptcy by jacquesm on Saturday January 16, 2021 @02:16PM (#25804602)
Where I live any kind of bankruptcy fraud is looked at with the most strict eye and is one of the few things that will get the corporate veil pierced, and moving assets or re-incorporating elsewhere would definitely rise to the level of attempted bankruptcy fraud.

Is using bankruptcy and re-incorporating in another state to avoid a lawsuit a legal avenue or is that going to get you into more trouble?

What's the penalty for bankruptcy fraud of this kind in the United States?

Re:National Rifle Association files for bankruptcy by beerandt on Saturday January 16, 2021 @03:09PM (#25805042)
Bankruptcy protection, ultimately, is meant to protect a debtor and ensure fair treatment of creditors, while preventing certain types of harassment from creditors.

Using bankruptcy as a means to strengthen chances of an organization's survival seems entirely consistent with the purpose of the law, and at a minimum, is not a showing (in and of itself) of fraud.

Especially so, if the NRA isn't misrepresenting it's financial obligations and status to the courts.

>that will get the corporate veil pierced

Intent and eventual result is not enough on its own to show this. If the letter of the law was followed in its actions, an organization's liability should be protected as provided by corporate law.

Obviously, bankruptcy also isn't meant to allow jurisdictional avoidance. But the NY AG's actions are themselves a legally questionable means of pursuing a political motive, for which they are skirting the spirit/intent of the law.

And they certainly fit the spirit/character of an overly aggressive creditor, if not the letter.

Which results in a potentially interesting dilemma for the NY AG- claim interest in the case as some kind of a creditor, which might afford NRA relief from them, or claim sovereign interest as a state, which might preserve since of their legal claims, but sideline them until the federal bankruptcy proceedings are over (with NRA emergence from protection in Texas).

From a practical/ethical perspective, if NY's pursuit/prosecution is just in NY, it should also be just in Texas.

If NY can't pursue the same prosecution, (or the same equitable relief) once the NRA moves, is that not an implicit admission of misusing jurisdictional authority?

Re:National Rifle Association files for bankruptcy by Scoundreller on Saturday January 16, 2021 @02:32PM (#25804741)
> Is using bankruptcy and re-incorporating in another state to avoid a lawsuit

It's regular practice in USA/Canada.

E.g. tobacco companies in Canada filed for bankruptcy the second they lost a big lawsuit against them. They were also careful enough to structure their Canadian ops as highly dependent subsidiaries. So even when whatever cash was left gets distributed, the parent still profits from its Canadian ops.

https://financialpost.com/news/retail-marketing/imperial-tob...

The nice thing about North american bankruptcies is that it's a public process, so you get a view into their operations that may never otherwise be/become public.

https://documentcentre.ey.com/#/detail-engmt?eid=402

Lots of opiate manufacturers going down the same road.

Re:National Rifle Association files for bankruptcy by chrisseaton on Saturday January 16, 2021 @02:36PM (#25804772)
I don't get bankruptcy in the US. Companies and organisations go bankrupt but just seem to keep on going as normal? Bankrupt airlines flying people as normal for example? The NRA being bankrupt but still going? What's up with that?

In the UK I think if you're bankrupt (insolvent) then that's it you're done, you're not trading anymore, and they will call in a third-party company to wrap you up and sell all your stuff and you're not likely getting any money out of it as an owner or shareholder.

Re:National Rifle Association files for bankruptcy by atombender on Saturday January 16, 2021 @03:34PM (#25805250)
Read about federal bankruptcy protection, aka Chapter 11 [1]. Total liquidation would be Chapter 7.

Applying for this kind protection allows a company to continue doing business while halting creditor claims. However, they have to undergo a formal process where they have to construct a restructuring plan to be reviewed and approved by the courts.

The UK this process is apparently called administration [2], and there are several mechanisms for restructuring and dealing with creditors.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chapter_11,_Title_11,_United_S...

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Administration_in_United_Kingd...

Re:National Rifle Association files for bankruptcy by conception on Saturday January 16, 2021 @02:41PM (#25804815)
There are two types - restructuring where they halt debt payments and get time to fix the business and going out of business bankruptcy. The first is a farce for whomever to exact all the value that’s left and almost always what companies do today.
Re:National Rifle Association files for bankruptcy by spaetzleesser on Saturday January 16, 2021 @02:34PM (#25804760)
As far as I understand it’s a common tool to get rid of liabilities and other problems. There is the term “strategic bankruptcy “. It’s definitely not a stain on a business person’s record as Trump has shown.
Re:National Rifle Association files for bankruptcy by beerandt on Saturday January 16, 2021 @03:27PM (#25805191)
It's still a stain, just not an irrational one.

For example, most of Trump's debts are heavily secured compared to those of companies without a history of bankruptcy in their past.

Re:National Rifle Association files for bankruptcy by erichocean on Saturday January 16, 2021 @02:19PM (#25804626)
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Re:National Rifle Association files for bankruptcy by jacquesm on Saturday January 16, 2021 @02:21PM (#25804652)
Does that even matter? Would you condone fraud by a party because they have stronger competitors? For me it wouldn't matter, I think that if the people in charge of this organization do something that is against the law and then use tricks to escape the consequences then they fully deserve to have the book thrown at them.

I just wonder if that is the case here or not according to US corporate law.

Re:National Rifle Association files for bankruptcy by ABeeSea on Saturday January 16, 2021 @02:21PM (#25804649)
The NRA served as a financial conduit to force the GOP to take more and more extreme positions on gun rights by threatening to fund primary challenges to any republicans who “stepped out of line.”

The have successfully wielded this power to great effect for the last three decades.

Re:National Rifle Association files for bankruptcy by lumost on Saturday January 16, 2021 @02:30PM (#25804724)
The "step out of line" problem in the GOP is real. It allows the extreme voices in the party to consistently target an individual politician while corralling everyone else. Meanwhile it also encourages the notion that the GOP has internal discussion and isn't very unified while voting on all issues as a unified block.

Every republican I know can name a few GOP platform positions they dislike or even find alarming, but never the less they vote for politicians who are forced to adopt every position.

Re:National Rifle Association files for bankruptcy by mobilewatch7 on Saturday January 16, 2021 @02:46PM (#25804845)
The problem is even worse for the Democrats on abortion, there are no pro-life Democrats allowed at the national level. The GOP is tolerant on guns in comparison.
Re:National Rifle Association files for bankruptcy by igetspam on Saturday January 16, 2021 @03:10PM (#25805061)
Nice whataboutism. You got some ammo to back up that claim? The GOP is nothing if not unified to a fault. They're strong because they will tow the line to hold power. (Mitch hates trump and Cruz got in line even after the mud slinging about his wife.) It's fractured now but they've historically been in lock step, even when it was against their personal, publicly stated, beliefs. Democrats have been weak because they don't require the same level of kool-aid consumption.
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Re:National Rifle Association files for bankruptcy by baix777 on Saturday January 16, 2021 @02:38PM (#25804789)
The issue is most people agree that people can own arms, but with limitations. For example, the vast majority of people think universal background checks are a good idea, but the NRA did not.

https://iop.harvard.edu/get-involved/harvard-political-revie...

BTW, using a term like "Gun Grabbers" might appeal to those who agree with you, but isn't going to convince anyone on the other side or in the middle of a topic.

Re:National Rifle Association files for bankruptcy by kryogen1c on Saturday January 16, 2021 @02:31PM (#25804739)
Most people i know own firearms or support firearm ownership or both, and no one i know is a part of the NRA.

most people i know that are for gun reform also own firearms (also not in the NRA, if that needed saying).

Re:National Rifle Association files for bankruptcy by igetspam on Saturday January 16, 2021 @03:15PM (#25805090)
I have guns. I like them. I even have an NRA membership that I can't get rid of. The NRA is not just a bogeyman, they're also the real problem. I'm with you. Sensible gun owners want (and should want) sensible gun ownership requirements.
Re:National Rifle Association files for bankruptcy by syshum on Sunday January 17, 2021 @07:57AM (#25810314)
The problem is what is "sensible"

To many gun owners the rules on the books today are already to repressive, or in many cases pointless (i.e banning "scary looking" guns for cosmetic reasons)

Then there is a whole host of ignorant reforms that will do nothing to lower crime or victimization but will just punish responsible gun owners.

Then there are the crazy reforms like banning all Semi-Automatic weapons.

So what "sensible" gun control do you support, and are you self aware enough to understand your personal use case for a firearm may not match everyone's? Most gun owners that stake claims like you have want to bann all uses for firearms they do not personally use a gun for. So a Hunter will push for reforms that do not impact hunting, a person that only uses handguns will push for long gun prohibitions, etc.

Re:National Rifle Association files for bankruptcy by ABeeSea on Saturday January 16, 2021 @02:39PM (#25804799)
You phrased this as if the only gun owners are NRA members. This may come as a surprise, but Democrats in the south hunt too.
Re:National Rifle Association files for bankruptcy by syshum on Sunday January 17, 2021 @07:59AM (#25810327)
I did?

Funny because I clearly said "The NRA actually only accounts for a very very small percentage of Americans that support Gun Rights. "

and

"vast majority of Americans support Gun Rights, this includes both Democrats and Republicans."

So it seems I phrased my comment exactly opposite of your straw-man, did you even read my comment before replying?