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Re:Facebook Says It Is Removing All Content Mentioning 'Stop... by crooked-v on Monday January 11, 2021 @05:59PM (#25739073)
They want the government to replaced by the free market for other people. For them, it's government benefits all the way.

The political scientist and author Frank Wilhoit talked about it in his works:

> Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition, to wit: there must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect.

Re:Facebook Says It Is Removing All Content Mentioning 'Stop... by chub500 on Monday January 11, 2021 @06:43PM (#25739878)
My perspective as a conservative:

1. These companies have every right to legally censor those they disagree with.

2. By exercising that right they put themselves at risk of being regulated more stringently (as utilities for example) when they demonstrate inelasticity in consumer choice.

3. I'd rather them not be treated as utilities because that hampers competition and thus impedes efficiency.

4. Your statement above is a farcical caricature of conservative ideology. Every product/service deserves a debate on what regulation is appropriate but as a society regulation only exists because bad actors necessitated its creation. No one wants car seats for their 8 year olds - we'd much rather be trusted to do the right thing.

Re:Facebook Says It Is Removing All Content Mentioning 'Stop... by wzdd on Monday January 11, 2021 @06:49PM (#25739961)
FYI, the political scientist Frank Wilhoit didn't write this, although he has written similar things.

The quote was made by a different Frank Wilhoit on the Crooked Timber blog / community.

Investigative work here: https://twitter.com/Delafina777/status/1183470106816331776

Re:Facebook Says It Is Removing All Content Mentioning 'Stop... by js2 on Monday January 11, 2021 @06:27PM (#25739607)
I'm pretty sure you're confusing two people with the same name. Francis Wilhoit the author/political scientist died in 2010:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_M._Wilhoit

The quote you're referring to is from a comment on a web page left in 2018:

https://crookedtimber.org/2018/03/21/liberals-against-progre...

The name in the comment links to his site:

https://www.broadheath.com/

He's a music composer.

Re:Facebook Says It Is Removing All Content Mentioning 'Stop... by brobdingnagians on Monday January 11, 2021 @06:04PM (#25739175)
Errrhm, all the "protected classes" tend to come from the left wing ideologies. Sure, the right isn't what it used to be with Jeffersonian liberalism and free speech, but that quote could easily be interpreted to be about modern left by simply replacing "Conservatism" with "Liberalism'.
Re:Facebook Says It Is Removing All Content Mentioning 'Stop... by crooked-v on Monday January 11, 2021 @06:07PM (#25739233)
'The right' as a term literally comes from supporters of the nobility and the king, the ultimate representation of someone who is protected but not bound by the law.
Re:Facebook Says It Is Removing All Content Mentioning 'Stop... by DenisM on Monday January 11, 2021 @06:19PM (#25739450)
The term “right” comes from the delegates seating in the French National Assembly during the revolution. Both the Left (Jacobins) and the Right (Girondists) voted together to behead the King and dispense with all noble priveledges and titles.
Re:Facebook Says It Is Removing All Content Mentioning 'Stop... by 411111111111111 on Monday January 11, 2021 @06:33PM (#25739707)
These people wanted to return to an aristocracy according to wikipedias history section of right wing, so his point stands I think.

But I'm not knowledgeable about history, so do elaborate if you know details please.

Re:Facebook Says It Is Removing All Content Mentioning 'Stop... by DenisM on Monday January 11, 2021 @06:58PM (#25740102)
Girondists? Aristocracy?! No way. There were many royalists in France, but none in the National Assembly.

The Girondists were considered right only because Jacobins were super left and ended up killing thousands of priests, what few nobles they could still find, tens of thousands of suspected royalists in mass executions, and eventually the Girondists themselves too for being too soft. The Girondists went to the guillotine singing The Marseilles! Certainly not the royalists that lot.

I recommend the “Revolutions” podcast - about 30 hours worth of the French Revolution is better than any movie.

Also the history of revolutions is very educational in this day and age. I for one hope we will never experience anything like it.

Re:Facebook Says It Is Removing All Content Mentioning 'Stop... by rayiner on Monday January 11, 2021 @06:23PM (#25739538)
They supported the French king against violent revolutionaries who executed him, imposed arbitrary cultural changes such as abandoning the calendar, and undertook a series of mass executions and purges until they were finally brought under control by Napoleon.
Re:Facebook Says It Is Removing All Content Mentioning 'Stop... by Gabriel_Martin on Monday January 11, 2021 @06:26PM (#25739588)
That doesn't seem to be what the quote is focused on though, where most efforts around "protected classes" come from. I think it does a rather good job highlighting it's point about conservative central hyperfocus on the supremacy of an in-group. Seems to be a pretty strong candidate for an underlying proposition at least, given some of the imagery we've seen over the past days.
Re:Facebook Says It Is Removing All Content Mentioning 'Stop... by the-smug-one on Monday January 11, 2021 @06:17PM (#25739427)
What left wing ideologies would that be?
Re:Facebook Says It Is Removing All Content Mentioning 'Stop... by chordalkeyboard on Monday January 11, 2021 @06:25PM (#25739575)
the Frankfurt school and critical theorists probably.
Re:Facebook Says It Is Removing All Content Mentioning 'Stop... by chrisoverzero on Monday January 11, 2021 @06:22PM (#25739513)
> […] all the "protected classes" tend to come from the left wing ideologies.

You don’t know what the term “protected class” means, and you should probably stop using it.

“Woman” isn’t a protected class, “sex” is. “Christian” isn’t a protected class, “religion” is.

Re:Facebook Says It Is Removing All Content Mentioning 'Stop... by dragonwriter on Monday January 11, 2021 @06:41PM (#25739851)
To be fair, not all protected classes are symmetric:

Veteran status and age over 40 are notable examples; you are absolutely permitted to discriminate against non-veterans and against people under 40.

Re:Facebook Says It Is Removing All Content Mentioning 'Stop... by ffggvv on Monday January 11, 2021 @06:16PM (#25739410)
yes everyone who disagrees with you is a hypocrite and dumb and it’s impossible they may have actual reasoning behind their thoughts. you’re very empathetic
Re:Facebook Says It Is Removing All Content Mentioning 'Stop... by carlisle_ on Monday January 11, 2021 @06:29PM (#25739639)
This comment is what is called "attacking the strawman".
Re:Facebook Says It Is Removing All Content Mentioning 'Stop... by zucked on Monday January 11, 2021 @06:18PM (#25739440)
Not op - but please provide an explanation that counters the argument, then. Seriously, I would really like to understand how to come to terms with two world views that appear to be diametrically opposed within the same movement.
Re:Facebook Says It Is Removing All Content Mentioning 'Stop... by DenisM on Monday January 11, 2021 @06:32PM (#25739691)
It’s not unusual to see a newcomer decrying HN as hypocritical, where in reality it’s just not a uniform group but many different people with different opinions becoming prominent at different times.

Many accusations of hypocrisy boil down to just that - different people with different opinions treated by the outsiders as a homogenous group.

Re:Facebook Says It Is Removing All Content Mentioning 'Stop... by dd36 on Monday January 11, 2021 @06:26PM (#25739577)
Most of them aren’t in it for ideology but the shared victimhood. They go along with the ideology because most of the donor funding wants the ideology to be Conservative. These people were New Deal Democrats before the civil rights movement.
Re:Facebook Says It Is Removing All Content Mentioning 'Stop... by rayiner on Monday January 11, 2021 @07:07PM (#25740237)
The chronology of that association doesn’t work. Democrats were staunch opponents of civil rights until the 1960s. Even then, more republicans supported the Civil Rights Act of 1964 than Democrats.

Even in 1976, Carter won with the traditional new deal coalition of southerners and northeast progressives. He won South Carolina by the same margin as Massachusetts. Even in 1980 against Reagan, Carter performed much closer to Reagan in the south than his overall national performance (outright winning Georgia, but coming close in most southern states).

The current alignment of southern states with Republicans really dates to the late 1980s to early 1990s, when Republicans started flipping Senate seats in the south.

Pinning this on Democrats’ support for the Civil Rights Act two decades before is one theory, but another is the industrialization of the southern economy. Southern New Deal Democrats represented agricultural states against protectionist northern industrial interests. But look at the economy of places like Georgia and Tennessee today. They’re built on low taxes and low regulation to draw companies away from high tax high regulation northern states. That started happening in the 1980s. Georgia is a really archetypal example of this: it’s probably the most openly pro-business big city in the country, and has a famously cooperative relationship between Atlanta Democratic mayors and Georgia Republican governors centered around attracting companies from places like New York: https://www.ajc.com/news/state--regional-govt--politics/with...

Re:Facebook Says It Is Removing All Content Mentioning 'Stop... by tptacek on Monday January 11, 2021 @07:34PM (#25740557)
All chronologies of the 2 major parties in the US are flawed because the parties spent the 20th century switching their positions. The exodus of southern racists from the Democratic party in the mid-century controls almost all the polarization in our politics. Reagan gets a lot of blame for being at the helm during the rise of the moral majority, but if you read Perlstein, the coalition Reagan was backed by has its roots in Goldwater's southern strategy.

It is no more reasonable to say that Democrats were staunch opponents of civil rights into the 1960s (Truman integrated the military!) than it is to say that Republicans were religious conservatives. Southern Democrats opposed civil rights, and Northern Republicans were New Deal economic populists.

I did the (probably pointless) exercise a few years ago of reading the GOP party platform documents from 1972 through 2012, tagging each with specific issues like "block grant benefits to states" or "oppose campaign finance restrictions". I don't believe for a moment that these documents are representative of the real party, but it's interesting that you can watch the GOP's position change so clearly over time. Into the late 1970s, the GOP was open to abortion!

The parties have held relatively coherent positions since the 1980s; I think when people talk about the roles the parties have had in US history, as opposed to specific politicians, we should probably limit ourself to the parties of Reagan and Mondale and their successors.

Re:Facebook Says It Is Removing All Content Mentioning 'Stop... by rayiner on Monday January 11, 2021 @10:22PM (#25741855)
There are broad features of the parties that haven't changed that are necessary to understand the timeline of southern realignment.

Republicans had been trying to win southern whites since the turn of the 20th century. That caused a large number of African Americans to abandon the party. They started voting overwhelmingly Democrat in 1936.

But the Democratic Party didn't support the Civil Rights Act until 1964. And the south remained solidly Democratic well into the 1980s, outside of Presidential contests. Many completely white rural southern counties voted for Carter and Clinton. What explains that timeline?

You have to look at the economics and the law. FDR's Democratic Party was recognizably modern: technocratic, and proponents of the administrative state, regulation, and economic redistribution. Southern whites stayed in this coalition because the south was poor and agrarian, and had interests averse to those of northern businesses. New Deal programs were instrumental in industrializing the southern economy: https://siepr.stanford.edu/sites/default/files/publications/.... In 1930, the southeast was the poorest region, with half the national average income. By 1970, the gap had closed dramatically, to 80%. https://www.visualcapitalist.com/comparing-wealth-u-s-geogra...

The Republican Party, meanwhile, continued to be a small-government, anti-regulation party during this time. Goldwater tried to win the south by opposing the Civil Rights Act of 1964 on small-government grounds, and while that worked in a few deep-south states, he lost every normally Republican state except Arizona.

By the time Reagan came along, a couple of things had changed:

1) The south's economy had dramatically industrialized, creating prosperous suburbs of the kind Reagan won all over the country.

2) The legal debate over the Civil Rights Act had long since been replaced by debates over affirmative action. The 1980 Republican Platform reflects this:

https://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/documents/republican-party-p... ("However, equal opportunity should not be jeopardized by bureaucratic regulations and decisions which rely on quotas, ratios, and numerical requirements to exclude some individuals in favor of others, thereby rendering such regulations and decisions inherently discriminatory.").

With the illegality of de jure discrimination settled by Brown v. Board, and commercial discrimination settled by the Civil Rights Act of 1964, the debate shifted to addressing what we'd call today "structural racism." And on that point, the Reagan platform reflects the same limited-government Republican ideology that existed since before Hoover. And Democrats' support for government intervention and affirmative action reflected their broader 20th century ideology as well.

FWIW, I happen to side with Democrats on this one, at least with respect to economic interventions. But the parties have more or less the positions you’d expect ideologically.

There is a good book that covers this: https://press.princeton.edu/books/paperback/9780691133898/th.... It gives a similar but slightly more nuanced take than Pearlstein, which I don't think is wrong, just incomplete and a bit misleading.

Re:Facebook Says It Is Removing All Content Mentioning 'Stop... by rayiner on Monday January 11, 2021 @10:43PM (#25741990)
TL;DR version

1) Goldwater’s landslide loss in 1964, winning no Republican states other than his own, proved that opposing the civil rights act of 1964 wasn’t tenable for either party. It’s not like Democrats could have beat Reagan had they opposed it. They would have lost their northern base, just as Goldwater lost the Republican base in 1964.

It’s one factor in the detachment of the south from the Democratic Party, but that detachment had been a long time coming due to economic changes.

2) By 1980, the debate shifted to affirmative action and quotas, where Republicans had a longstanding ideological basis for opposing government intervention.

Re:Facebook Says It Is Removing All Content Mentioning 'Stop... by tptacek on Monday January 11, 2021 @11:06PM (#25742135)
It's not often I get to say that I think you're genuinely wrong, but here I think you're really far off the mark. Goldwater flipped the deep south (GA SC AL MS and LA). Nixon noticed and ran the same strategy in '68, by which point the entire south, wall-to-wall, was lined up behind the southern strategy (the states that didn't go for Nixon went for Wallace). I don't see any way you can read the history of the 1960s and 1970s as the Republican party running away from segregation; the opposite is true, and was literally recorded in newspaper features of the time:

https://www.nytimes.com/packages/html/books/phillips-souther...

(Similarly, I think you've collapsed the GOP of the 60s too far down; the Rockefeller Republicans were, on domestic policy, square in the middle of where the mainstream Democratic party is today. George Romney would have opposed AOC, but so does Gina Raimondo.)

At any rate, when people debate which is the "racist" party, they almost invariably ignore the fact that the US was a 4-party polity in the mid-century, not a 2-party polity. What's changed since then is that we have, from 1980 through today, sorted down to 2.

Re:Facebook Says It Is Removing All Content Mentioning 'Stop... by rayiner on Wednesday January 13, 2021 @02:50PM (#25767101)
You're just incorrect to equate Goldwater with Nixon/Reagan, and to draw a straight line from supporting segregation to opposing affirmative action/bussing/etc.

Goldwater offered a libertarian justification for allowing the south to continue segregation. And what did that get him? He flipped five Deep South states, at the expense of losing every traditionally Republican state Nixon had won in 1960, with the exception of Arizona. Goldwater lost stalwart Republican states in the Great Plains and Mountain West, like Colorado, that had voted against FDR three out of four times. Supporting segregation was a political loser for Republicans.

Nixon and Reagan did not "run the same strategy." Neither supported segregation. They didn't have to. Democrats, having abandoned their segregationist wing, sought far-reaching government programs and social engineering to remedy economic and social disparities, as Democrats are wont to do. Nixon and Reagan pushed back on those policies, entirely consistent with Republican ideology.

This article does a good job explaining what really happened: https://claremontreviewofbooks.com/the-myth-of-the-racist-re...

> The evidence suggests that the GOP advanced in the South because it attracted much the same upwardly mobile (and non-union) economic and religious conservatives that it did elsewhere in the country.

Re:Facebook Says It Is Removing All Content Mentioning 'Stop... by rayiner on Monday January 11, 2021 @06:41PM (#25739852)
Republicans are a fusion of quite a few different people: https://dailycampus.com/2020/09/14/break-up-already-fusionis...

> Buckley used the pages of National Review to promote a ‘fusionism’ of sorts between paleo-conservatives, neo-conservatives, tea-party enthusiasts, the deeply religious, libertarians, social conservatives and free-marketeers.

Particularly since Trump, a lot of the base is now economically moderate or even liberal, but socially conservative. The social conservatives are the ones who are most worried about the social liberals having increased power over online media platforms.

Apart from that, the deregulatory conservatives don’t believe that criticizing some practice of private business means going further to impose government regulation. To them, there is a role for self regulation. And the social conservatives and traditional conservatives don’t care about using the power of government for perceived proper ends at all. They are quite mad, in fact, at the limited government conservatives for giving up so much ground on things like healthcare and unions over those issues.

Re:Facebook Says It Is Removing All Content Mentioning 'Stop... by Veen on Monday January 11, 2021 @06:28PM (#25739633)
One way to explain the apparent contradiction is that free markets aren’t the same as anarchy. Businesses should be free to compete, but that doesn’t mean they should be free to do anything they believe makes them more competitive. Free market supporters believe they are more efficient than alternatives, but there may be principles of more importance than efficiency.

Plus, certain behaviours are in the interests of specific businesses but damaging to free competition as a whole: monopolies, censorship, etc.

Re:Facebook Says It Is Removing All Content Mentioning 'Stop... by saladgnu054 on Monday January 11, 2021 @06:34PM (#25739735)
Sure: people who want more free market want the state to focus on regulation, instead of actually owning everything, competition is the motor of progress. For capitalism to function well it needs constant watch to prevent lobbying, monopolism and corruption in general. It needs bad companies to go bankrupt so the good companies flourish and it needs to ensure companies are focused on maximizing stakeholder profits up to, and not exceeding, their social and ecological obligations. Those social and ecological obligations were decided by the government by the people; whereas if companies start having political opinions they'll want to undermine the will of the people and do a disservice to their raison d'etre.