Telegram is only end-to-end encrypted in a feature called secret chats. Groups and channels and individual chats are not end-to-end encrypted.

In other words, Telegram doesn't even deserve to be in the same conversation. Even if it had the best encryption out there (however you define that), that wouldn't mean anything when it's not used in like 98% of the cases (percentage pulled out of my ass).

It's like comparing Signal to Facebook's Messenger, and I'd still say Messenger over Telegram because at least it uses Signal's protocol under the hood (I believe the feature is called hidden conversations) instead of inventing its own thing and ignoring the expert opinions.

Telegram not having e2e by default is a feature; It allows great multi-device usage.

Well, matrix can to multi-device usage great and has E2E, so I don't see why that would be a hard requirement or even any kind of requirement.

Because at least according to the Threema devs, doing e2e multi device in a secure and anonymous way is not trivial.[1] Maybe matrix solved that problem, maybe they don't care...

[1] https://threema.ch/en/blog/posts/md-architectural-overview-i...

I guess it depends what you need and what is "secure and anonymous". Matrix probably leaks a ton of metadata.

In practice it works by each device having their own encryption key and then those devices are bound together with a cross signing key, so your peer can robustly identify all your devices at once (and the list of devices can change as long as they are bound by the cross signing key). Certainly the server is able to correlate device ids (and thus keys) and IPs.

The way threema does it sounds a bit how room encryption works in Matrix amond multiple clients.

What kind of multi-device issues do Signal and WhatsApp have exactly?

Granted I've never used WhatsApp, but I've been using Signal for like 5 years now on my phone and on my laptop with absolutely no issues.

Seriously? Both only have crappy web apps that you basically tunnel messages through your phone (at least that's what I remember) and are tied to a specific mobile device with entire companies being built around the apparently extremely complicated task of moving WhatsApp messages around.

Meanwhile, the Telegram desktop client is at feature-parity with the phone app with both running entirely independently on as many devices as you want.

Signal messages are not routed through your phone. Reach has it's own independent queue and the phone can be off and you'll still receive messages on the desktop client.

I would also state that it is unfair to compare an app that doesn't have to worry about your privacy and solving real engineering problems vs basically making a web app that can easily sync your data because it's all stored on someone else's computer.

If that's the level of privacy you're setting you may as well use email for communicating. It's federated, it's easy to use, and everybody has one.

All that said, I do agree the Signal desktop app needs some work, but they'll get there eventually, and in the meantime I don't have to wonder if any of my data will be leaked to anyone outside of my intended recipient.

> basically making a web app

Funny you say that because Signal is the one with a crappy Electron app which is definitely a deal breaker for me. I mean I lose E2E with Telegram but gain really well designed and featureful platform apps that are native and non-gimped desktop apps (and a functional linux client. Signal's Ubuntu client just crashed for me).

Signal none, WhatsApp still cannot be used without being activated on a smartphone/tablet, and cannot be activated on more than one mobile device.

I don't think you can even use the same Signal account on two different iOS devices, much less desktop. Their desktop apps just link to the phone's app.

WhatsApp is a total joke, it loses media (IIRC this includes audio messages as well) people send you after a very short time even when you use it on a single device, so talking about multi-device usage is completely out of the overton window.

WhatsApp does not have multi-device, so technically it has no issues with it.

(for any sensible definition of multi-device)

Good point. I use irc more than any other IM and nobody ever complained about lack of e2e there. When the usecase is more about meeting new people it doesn't apply as much.

One thing to note about Telegram's secret chats is that they're device-specific. That is, if you start a conversation on your phone, you can't pick up that conversation on your laptop: https://telegram.org/faq#secret-chats

IMHO, Signal main advantage is that you can sell it to your parents and friends like "WhatsApp, but safe".

It tries to have feature-parity to WhatsApp; looks the same, works the same. All this while researching innovations on cryptography that doesn't compromise user experience too much.

In my experience, doing exactly what WhatsApp does (but safer) makes it an easy sell to people around me.

True, though Signal annoyingly wants the user to also enable it as SMS app. From my own experience with relatives this can lead to a lot of confusion among non-technical users, for example when they try to send a picture to a contact and it fails because that contact does not use Signal. From what I've seen Signal does not clearly show a difference between those two groups.

Other than that it's definitely a great alternative.

IMO it works just as well and unlike Telegram it's actually credible... The telegram crypto is an absolute disaster and they have been pretty shady and defensive when asked about it in the past. Not to mention the back-end is closed-source. Also, the desktop clients still don't support encryption, many years after it's been first requested.

Telegram's MTProto 2.0 encryption protocol was recently proved correct, but I haven't seen any peer review or discussion on the paper yet.

https://arxiv.org/abs/2012.03141

Do you have some links regarding their disastrous encryption? The security guys i know speak highly of telegram and AFAIK it has been open sourced recently, but i am open to new information.

The Telegram backend is still closed-source as far as I know. The problem with their crypto is that nobody really knows if it's secure or not because it's closed and unverified.

Ever heard the first rule of encryption? "Never roll your own crypto". Well they broke the rule and they won't let anyone check if the crypto is secure or not.

Not to mention encryption is off by default and your plaintext messages are stored on their servers...

Cite some sources. They clearly do not store your messages in plaintext on their servers

https://telegram.org/privacy#3-3-your-messages https://telegram.org/privacy#4-1-storing-data

> in plaintext

They have the encryption key, so the difference is not huge.

Stored on different servers in different jurisdictions, right? Sure it's not ideal if you want maximum security of your data, but it _is_ a huge difference from simply storing plain text.

I do apologize, i had Threema in my mind and mixed them up.

Telegram has had several security and privacy issues in the past. It also stores your messages unencrypted on their server by default.

Hardly comparable in terms of usability. But then, WhatsApp isn't that good compared to Telegram either. In fact, I wouldn't use WhatsApp at all if various communities wouldn't host there group-chats I belong to. So I don't think usability has that much to do with your ability to switch. And supposed "security" has almost nothing to do with it whatsoever.

So I personally don't even know if I'll keep fighting for my privacy and stuff or if I'm going to give up now. I don't want to, but I honestly don't imagine how on Feb08 I will be telling people who aren't my close friends or co-workers, but communication with whom is really valuable to me, that I refuse to join any WhatsApp group chats anymore, so they will have to notify me about anything important (important to me, in he first place!) personally via SMS, Telegram, email, whatever. Especially now, when people are forced to communicate remotely and stuff gets cancelled/renewed/delayed because of another round of idiotic government regulations, so if I'll fall out of these communities, I'm pretty much left in the vacuum and won't know about anything that happens.

Better security, worse UX.

not as good in terms of UI/ux but compared to pgp emails much simplier ps telegram is no more secure than Whatsapp unless u use secret chats