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Re:A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize by labcomputer on Monday January 04, 2021 @02:06PM (#25636295)
> This is because those unions are serving a very different purpose to the stereotypical union some engineers seem to fear. [...]

I think there's another purpose of the film industry unions that doesn't get mentioned much in these (tech industry) discussions. Specifically, that the film unions raise wages by limiting the number of people who enter the industry. It's simple supply and demand.

This works via the following mechanisms:

First, the film unions provide useful benefits (like reasonably-priced health insurance), so most professional actors want to be part of the union.

Second, union members are prohibited from working on non-union productions. Additionally, most well-known actors are union members. This gives a strong incentive for a production to be a union production.

Third, union productions are prohibited from hiring more than a token number of non-union actors (unless they pay a fine to the union). This gives a strong incentive for productions to only use union talent (which also gives actors another reason to want to be a union member).

So far so good. But how does one join the union? That's the catch-22: You must work for at least n days on a union production (n=1 for speaking roles, n=3 for extra roles) to be eligible to join SAG/AFTRA. But most union productions won't hire you unless you're a union member (see above).

I don't know whether something like that would work in the software industry, but it seems at least plausible to me that it could benefit everyone who is currently employed in tech (at the expense of future potential tech employees).

Re:A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize by taurath on Monday January 04, 2021 @06:32PM (#25639755)
I would add - finally, the nature of the film industry is to work on a contract project basis, with individual funding rounds rather than being a "regular" employee. Thats why the union benefits in terms of health insurance is so important.

So imagine a union of software contractors - that union would have no power because anyone wanting to use a contractor could sidestep them immediately by hiring a non-union contractor of which there are many.

How it could work is this - imagine you took the top 20 researchers in machine learning and they unionized, and refused to work except under a contract negotiated by the union. If Google wants "that guy" then they have to use that union contract. "That guy" has power, because people want to hire them. That can form an umbrella under which other ML researchers can sign up. Suddenly you can't effectively do ML without working with the union.

Companies with people like that keep those people under extremely lucrative contracts so its unlikely they would be financially motivated to form such a union. There's also the factor that "what even is the top-20 researchers". In movies you know if you have Brad Pitt or not. But you 100% need as many top people as possible to somehow become union-minded. I'd hope that this group of Google workers grows quickly. Its great that they've voted to form.

Note of course I'm just spitballing here and am not at all an expert in labor relations or how unions really form or work. Maybe it didn't go like that. Here's an interesting article thats paywalled, but it at least describes an early unionization and then a big back and forth struggle. It would behoove us all to understand how the labor movement of the 1890s to 1960s came about, because it would appear we are just about to enter such a period.

https://www.jstor.org/stable/3815030?seq=1

Re:A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize by michaelbrave on Tuesday January 05, 2021 @10:48AM (#25646716)
Perhaps in your ML union example they would be motivated by things other than financial compensation, perhaps ethical concerns.
Re:A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize by kayfox on Tuesday January 05, 2021 @10:13AM (#25646310)
In the theatre industry the union's work to limit supply and demand is usually along the lines of assigning work by seniority and seniority based on how much work someone has done, so when you first get into IATSE, you have to be really flexible and available for whatever work comes along so that you can accumulate the time to get more work.

This somewhat limits entrants. Some IATSE locals use different variations on that work assignment strategy and some entrants get work outside the union, so it varies by location, specialty, sector, etc.

Re:A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize by throwaway894345 on Monday January 04, 2021 @02:34PM (#25636695)
> I don't know whether something like that would work in the software industry, but it seems at least plausible to me that it could benefit everyone who is currently employed in tech (at the expense of future potential tech employees).

I doubt it, if only because actors are hired in large part due to their celebrity. There are no celebrity SREs (at best they have some cache in the software/SRE community, but not in the general public).

Re:A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize by minimuffins on Monday January 04, 2021 @03:29PM (#25637415)
Most people in film and TV unions aren't actors.
Re:A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize by bradleyjg on Monday January 04, 2021 @04:10PM (#25638097)
The other unions are even harder to get into. At least occasionally a casting director will insist on a non-SAG actor. Many of the other unions are effectively impossible to get into except via their apprenticeship programs. Similar to the physician cartel ...
Re:A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize by nitrogen on Monday January 04, 2021 @04:22PM (#25638262)
Similar to the physician cartel ...

Indeed, sports and entertainment unions probably aren't a good comparison for tech. Other professions like accounting, medicine, law, and engineering might have better examples of cost/benefit, though it's hard to think of another professional industry with the ridiculous level of functional duplication (a million frameworks for everything) in tech.

Re:A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize by ryanbrunner on Monday January 04, 2021 @06:12PM (#25639593)
Honestly, an apprenticeship model is probably fairly well suited for a lot of types of software development. In my mind it's superior to a CS degree or bootcamp in terms of teaching practical skills.

There's definitely challenges in not turning it into a protectionist thing, but done well I don't think it's a bad thing.

Re:A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize by GauntletWizard on Monday January 04, 2021 @06:48PM (#25639926)
Mentorship programs exist at most major companies, and new software engineers are not allowed to commit code willy-nilly - They pass code review, and less senior members of a team typically have more careful code review applied to their commits than more senior ones.

Mentorship programs that bypass the degree requirement are less common, but I made it through without a degree. I would love to see more of them, and more companies willing to help with work-study, but the challenges of that approach are real and may not have an easy solution.

Re:A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize by throwaway894345 on Monday January 04, 2021 @03:54PM (#25637818)
I was responding to a particular comment that was talking about the mechanics of these entertainment unions with respect to actors specifically:

> First, the film unions provide useful benefits (like reasonably-priced health insurance), so most professional actors want to be part of the union. Second, union members are prohibited from working on non-union productions. Additionally, most well-known actors are union members. This gives a strong incentive for a production to be a union production. Third, union productions are prohibited from hiring more than a token number of non-union actors (unless they pay a fine to the union). This gives a strong incentive for productions to only use union talent (which also gives actors another reason to want to be a union member).

Note that by observing important differences between the film and software industries, I'm not arguing that unions couldn't work for the software industry. I suspect this is why I've been downvoted.

Re:A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize by labcomputer on Monday January 04, 2021 @05:23PM (#25639109)
> I was responding to a particular comment that was talking about the mechanics of these entertainment unions with respect to actors specifically:

I get your point, but I was just using SAG to give a concrete example. The rules are broadly similar for the other film industry unions as well, with similar effects (and other roles have "industry-famous" if not "mom and dad famous" talent).

I suspect you'd get similar dynamics if, for example, a large cohort of the staff/principle engineers plus a bunch of senior engineers in the valley joined the SWE Local 16384. It's probably not necessary that your mom and dad have heard of them.

Re:A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize by throwaway894345 on Monday January 04, 2021 @06:33PM (#25639770)
I guess I'm saying that the celebrity nature of actors is a confounding factor. It's not that these actors are merely celebrities among the film industry, but your mom and dad and friends actually have heard of them and their presence in a film is going to influence whether or not people turn out to see the film. You can get the most famous programmers together to build a product, and no one is going to buy that product on the basis of those programmers' celebrity unless some segment of the software industry is the target audience for that product.

To be quite clear (and likely this was your point, in which case I agree), if the film/tv unions excluded actors, the effect would be pretty comparable. My friends and family aren't going to see a film because Joe The Sound Guy worked on it just like they aren't going to buy an app just because Collin The SRE worked on it (no matter how famous Joe and Collin are in their respective industries).

Re:A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize by sitkack on Monday January 04, 2021 @03:58PM (#25637873)
> There are no celebrity SRE

Twitter is full of them.

Re:A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize by throwaway894345 on Monday January 04, 2021 @04:54PM (#25638749)
>> There are no celebrity SREs (at best they have some cache in the software/SRE community, but not in the general public).

> Twitter is full of them.

Name one.

Re:A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize by ar_lan on Monday January 04, 2021 @06:06PM (#25639538)
Kelsey Hightower comes to mind.

In general, I try to avoid Twitter though because the software community there is very self-congratulatory and a bit toxic elitist. Not to mention if you aren't a front-end dev good luck being treated like you are a real engineer.

Re:A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize by kelnos on Monday January 04, 2021 @07:08PM (#25640138)
> Not to mention if you aren't a front-end dev good luck being treated like you are a real engineer.

Is this a typo? I was under the impression that frontend devs were near the bottom of the dev pecking order. At least that's been my experience wherever I've worked and in things I've read.

Re:A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize by throwaway894345 on Tuesday January 05, 2021 @10:28AM (#25646492)
I think you're reading it wrong; the phrasing as I read it is consistent with your "frontend devs at the bottom of the pecking order" perception. The original quote says "good luck being treated like a real engineer" implying that frontend devs are treated so poorly they aren't even considered to be real engineers.

FWIW, frontend is a suite of hard problems which are distinct from the problems we face on the backend but no less challenging. Frontend development today certainly seems a lot less rigorous than backend development in the sense that there seem to be fewer best-practices and more of an embrace of a certain "cowboy/ninja/move-fast-and-break-things" chaotic ethic (engineers from other disciplines would balk at the characterization of backend engineering as 'rigorous', but I think it's fair to say that we devote more rigor to it than frontend development). I think this is largely due to our industry deciding that frontend was a low-skill position and thus putting most of our most junior engineers there to sort it out, and then we on the backend mock them for churning out new frameworks and tools in a desperate effort to bring some order to the chaos.

Re:A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize by ar_lan on Tuesday January 05, 2021 @12:36PM (#25648173)
No, not a typo, just specific to Twitter. On Twitter, I seem to only find React-devs that gain any kind of fame, and then it's all a big circle of people who self-promote one another.

My personal guess is it's because front-end people can demo things easier.

I think amongst larger dev circles, it's probably generally true that front-end are considered towards the bottom. I think some front-end developers, like Dan Abramov, show that that's a bit unfounded.

Re:A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize by throwaway894345 on Monday January 04, 2021 @06:38PM (#25639808)
Hightower's celebrity does not extend to the general public. I don't think he even has a wikipedia page, which is certainly the low water mark for celebrity.