The argument is that they were profoundly negligent.
As for the lab side of things, the argument is that it was an accidental release (as happened multiple times with SARS 1).
My point is whether or not it walked out of the lab (by ACCIDENT) given they knew in 2003 that certain things were major risks, they should have come down on them like a ton of bricks. The fact they re-opened wet markets and took no further steps to tackle that makes them responsible through negligence.
1) China is known to have contributed[0] to bat coronavirus research, my speculation is that Wuhan’s BSL-4 lab exists primarily for this reason.
2) There were documented lab escapes of original SARS-CoV from labs in Beijing[1] in 2004, as I recall resulting in at least one death.
3) WHO’s study starts this month, but they don’t seem to mention lab escape (not of some “engineered virus”, just straight up a natural sample escaping on a person) as a possibility[2]. I am not sure if they are playing politics or this is their sincere outlook.
I can’t stress this enough: China may have been unlucky to be struck by the original SARS-CoV, so it’s reasonable that they had the motivation to study its origins; that research is valuable and it’d be absolutely bonkers to criticize scientists for having done it. Even if lab escape did indeed happen to be the cause of SARS-CoV-2 pandemic, I am not sure this should be a basis for prosecution of a particular country (as opposed to e.g. tightening of BSL security practices): there’s human factor, and mistakes happen; if it hadn’t been China it could’ve eventually been another country.
What I find alarming is if an effort to obstruct the study of pandemic origins in order to save face (?) is taking place. If it was a lab escape, humanity’s future could be much safer if we knew how it happened—but how would researchers know it was a lab escape if they can’t look in that direction?
[0] https://virologyj.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12985-... (2015, two authors are with Wuhan Institute of Virology)
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002–2004_SARS_outbreak#April_...
[2] https://www.who.int/publications/m/item/who-convened-global-...
Secondly they covered up the outbreak. Had it been reported a few weeks earlier apparently up to 95% of deaths could have been prevented. That is really insane.
The lab side of it is interesting and it seems just so much of a coincidence that the lab was right next to the oubreak, of all the places in all of the huge country of China.
I don't doubt they were motivated to study bat coronaviruses, of course they were and there was in fact very big competition with the US.
The problem is China is such a corrupt country where health + safety + following protocols is something of a joke, as with most communist/totalitarian systems people always try to get away with as much as they can that I have zero trust in their BS4 lab being properly constructed and procedures followed correctly.
They also covered up the discovery of a very similar virus some years ago (they actively anonymised records around it after covid19 emerged) in a bat cave (no pun intended) which already appeared to have bat-human transmission.
It is something like 96% similar to covid19 though some scientists say it isn't feasible that it evolved into covid19 except in nature. However I wonder whether some form of natural evolution of the virus was experimented on or encouraged in the lab or whether this assumption is in fact correct.
So the lab thing is definitely up for debate, however the general attitude from much of the media and certainly China is to dismiss it as a crackpot theory. Absolutely don't think it is.
Also I personally do not believe at all that any of this was intentional. I think it's a mixture of negligence, cover-up and face saving.
Keeping in mind the next virus might not be a 0.4% case fatality rate that mostly kills the very old, it's deeply frightening.
I agree completely.
The reason I - and others - commented, is that your initial comments made it sound like you believed it was 100% on purpose, that it was some weird plan of the CCP to gain power, somehow.
I fail to see the value of this, China is not Sweden, I am not sure why you hold them to the same standards, that seems strange to me
But anyhow, I just wanted to add that the CIA and the US state department was aware of a new Pneumonia surging on China back in November and sped to warn NATO and Israel of it[0], after all, no one ever needed to actually listen to what the Chinese government says, that's what intelligence agencies are for
[0] https://www.timesofisrael.com/us-alerted-israel-nato-to-dise...
Please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and don't do this again. If you want explanation, I've posted extensively in this thread:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25616408
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25615903
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25616086
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25616042
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25616205
and there are hundreds more past explanations at https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comme....
No, we're not communist agents or secret sympathizers; we're simply trying to moderate an internet forum that doesn't suck. Posts like this one destroy that like salt on a slug, so please fight your battles elsewhere. Edit: Sorry, I realize it probably sounds like I'm picking on you personally and I don't mean to at all—this kind of thing is unfortunately common, and it's a big deal.
Personal attacks and name-calling are also not ok ("your frankly very ignorant"), so please don't do those either.
What did they gain? How did they capitalize?
> and tried to cover their corruption and continued to dissapear physicians, journalists and anyone who tried to expose their incompetence and maleficence in regards to COVID.
100% agree here. But that they're desperately trying to cover it up, regardless of origin, doesn't mean they gained anything from it.
> I can go on, but this should at least give you some context to your frankly very ignorant position on the matter.
Did you confuse me with some other poster? Nothing in that wall of text has got anything to do with my position, or this specific argument, and you still didn't address my actual question.
That they violated international Law and got to illegally occupy and then annex a major financial Hub, isn't that alone enough? I mean I go into detail about how it all took place.
They then got to quell dissenters and hunted them down in order to re-affirm Pooh's (Xi) stance as the tough man of the CCP. 3 high profile activists have been jailed for nothing more than being involved in a protest, a previously Civil Right in HK, 10 of 12 Hongkoners were captured for non-crimes and sent to be tried on the mainland, essentially bypassing the need for the extradition bill that got rejected due to the protests as was intended, but worked anyway due to the perverse nature of the National Security Law.
I'm not sure what more to say to the rest of your response, and I'm wondering if you even bothered to read any of it; are you not familiar with amount of money that flows through Hong Kong's Capital Markets at all? The value of the real estate in the most expensive place on Earth?
Also, I properly used paragraphs: so it's hardly a wall of text. Lengthy perhaps, but not a wall of text as its properly structured.
No, you haven't given any reason whatsoever how the coronavirus allowed China to do all these things. How, specifically, did the intentional or unintentional release of the virus aid the CCP strategically?
What did the virus allow them to gain that they would otherwise be unable to do?
How did they capitalize on the global pandemic?